Seth Thomas won't chime from the 1920's?

[Adrian Britton]

I have inherited my Aunt's Seth Thomas mantle clock. She inherited it from her Aunt.
I am not sure of the specific model/style so I will just call it a "Chime Clock" for discussion purposes. It looks to be from the 1920's. It is dark Mahogany. It is 9 1/2" tall, and 8 1/4" X 5", it has numbers not Roman numerals and says "Made in the USA" under the 6. It has the winders at the 8 and 4 locations and the S F just below the center. I figure from my research it is an 8-Day clcok. and has the single chime.

It was packed away and last week I pulled it out. I decided not to wind it as the springs looked "tight". I got a can of compressed air and dusted it off. I hung the pendulum and made sure it was on a level surface. I picked up one side an inches or two and placed it flat again and the clock started to tick/tock...It has been running now for 5 straight days...it was running about 7 minutes fast and has now sped up to about 9-10 minutes fast each day...I have not wound it or made any adjustments yet...BUT the chime does not "Chime"...when I move the hands clockwise it "Clicks" on the half hour and hour but it does not chime.

If I open the back and look in at the RH side there is a "Lever" by what I think is called the "Count Wheel". If I lift this "Lever" the wheel spins and the hammer goes up and down and the clock will chime as long as I hold the "Lever" up. But it will not "chime on the half hour or hour" as time goess by by.

I am a car builder by profession and build and restore antique and classic cars for a living. So I am not worried about "trying to fix it myself" but I learned to fix cars from other. So while taking apart a generator or starter doesn't bother me I learned this skill from others at their side.

I would like to fix this clock and am seeking help and information from others who are more in-tune with this clock than I am...

Thank You
Adrian

[Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer]

Post by Adrian Britton
I have inherited my Aunt's Seth Thomas mantle clock. She inherited it from her Aunt.
I am not sure of the specific model/style so I will just call it a "Chime Clock" for discussion purposes. It looks to be from the 1920's. It is dark Mahogany. It is 9 1/2" tall, and 8 1/4" X 5", it has numbers not Roman numerals and says "Made in the USA" under the 6. It has the winders at the 8 and 4 locations and the S F just below the center. I figure from my research it is an 8-Day clcok. and has the single chime.
It was packed away and last week I pulled it out. I decided not to wind it as the springs looked "tight". I got a can of compressed air and dusted it off. I hung the pendulum and made sure it was on a level surface. I picked up one side an inches or two and placed it flat again and the clock started to tick/tock...It has been running now for 5 straight days...it was running about 7 minutes fast and has now sped up to about 9-10 minutes fast each day...I have not wound it or made any adjustments yet...BUT the chime does not "Chime"...when I move the hands clockwise it "Clicks" on the half hour and hour but it does not chime.
If I open the back and look in at the RH side there is a "Lever" by what I think is called the "Count Wheel". If I lift this "Lever" the wheel spins and the hammer goes up and down and the clock will chime as long as I hold the "Lever" up. But it will not "chime on the half hour or hour" as time goess by by.
I am a car builder by profession and build and restore antique and classic cars for a living. So I am not worried about "trying to fix it myself" but I learned to fix cars from other. So while taking apart a generator or starter doesn't bother me I learned this skill from others at their side.
I would like to fix this clock and am seeking help and information from others who are more in-tune with this clock than I am...

Might it be as simple as a small "silent" lever at the side of the dial?

[Adrian Britton]

Silent lever?
There are no other arms or levers externally on the clock or on the face of the clock.
The chime part itself does pivot where you can move it out of the way so the hammer will not strike it that is not my issue, it is that on the half hour and hour, even though you hear the click, it does not engage the Spring or turn other levers that I am unfamiliar of the true action of it to start the hammer bouncing up-and-down on the chime, but I did check to see if there was some other way to turn off the chime and the only way to do that is to slightly pivot the chime itself out of the way of the hammer striking it
Show quoted text

[Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer]

Post by Adrian Britton
Silent lever?
There are no other arms or levers externally on the clock or on the face of the clock.
The chime part itself does pivot where you can move it out of the way so the hammer will not strike it that is not my issue, it is that on the half hour and hour, even though you hear the click, it does not engage the Spring or turn other levers that I am unfamiliar of the true action of it to start the hammer bouncing up-and-down on the chime, but I did check to see if there was some other way to turn off the chime and the only way to do that is to slightly pivot the chime itself out of the way of the hammer striking it
Show quoted text

Clock repair is substantially different from other mechanical
engineering primarily because of the infinitesimal power available
at the escape wheel. (eg NEVER put oil or grease on the teeth
of the (gear) wheels and pinions.)

If the clock has sentimental value for you, it would probably be best
to seek the assistance of a professional horologist.

I think you to be in Yankland, so google for NAWCC as a start.

OTOH, clock repair and restoration is a fascinating hobby, but don't
start poking around until you're fairly sure about what you're doing.

A very good book to start with is ...

"An Introductory Guide to Repairing Mechanical Clocks" by Scott Jeffery

Pub. The Crowood Press

ISBN 978 1 78500 092 8

ISTR that the book is online on Google Books.

HTH

[Adrian Britton]

Thank you. I haven't done anything to it besides blow out the dust. I figured lubricants were a no no.
I found NAWCC but you need to join to post questions...I may go that way.
Again thank you for your reply

[Chris]

Post by Adrian Britton
Thank you. I haven't done anything to it besides blow out the dust. I figured lubricants were a no no.
I found NAWCC but you need to join to post questions...I may go that way.
Again thank you for your reply

A lot of people overoil old clocks and that dries out over the years
gumming up the works. If you are serious about the clock, the only way
is to strip down completely clean, reassemble and lube only where
specified.

I rebuilt an IBM electric a year or so ago and after a lot of
adjustment, kept within a couple of minutes over ten months last
year. Far better the the IBM spec of 15 secs per month. My first
pendulum clock, but wanted an IBM because of the computing
association and the engineering prowess. Around 1940 vintage...

Chris

[Ian Partridge]

"Adrian Britton" wrote:

"If I lift this "Lever" the wheel spins and the hammer goes up and down and
the clock will chime as long as I hold the "Lever" up. But it will not
"chime on the half hour or hour" as time goess by by."

Look at the domed collet and taper pin holding the hands. Is the domed
collet missing? Is the taper pin missing?

A knurled nut is often used instead of a taper pin on American clocks, but
you should still have a domed collet or at least a washer behind to keep the
minute hand under friction tension and, importantly, in correct position for
the motion work pin under the dial to lift the strike on the hour and half
hour. Can you hear the pin lift and drop when you advance the hands?

Ian

[Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer]

Post by Ian Partridge
"If I lift this "Lever" the wheel spins and the hammer goes up and down and
the clock will chime as long as I hold the "Lever" up. But it will not
"chime on the half hour or hour" as time goess by by."
Look at the domed collet and taper pin holding the hands. Is the domed
collet missing? Is the taper pin missing?
A knurled nut is often used instead of a taper pin on American clocks, but
you should still have a domed collet or at least a washer behind to keep the
minute hand under friction tension and, importantly, in correct position for
the motion work pin under the dial to lift the strike on the hour and half
hour. Can you hear the pin lift and drop when you advance the hands?

He did say that he hears a click on the hour and half hour, which
presumably is the Lifting Piece being released by the pins on the hour
wheel.

[Ian Partridge]

Post by Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer

Post by Ian Partridge
"If I lift this "Lever" the wheel spins and the hammer goes up and down and
the clock will chime as long as I hold the "Lever" up. But it will not
"chime on the half hour or hour" as time goess by by."
Look at the domed collet and taper pin holding the hands. Is the domed
collet missing? Is the taper pin missing?
A knurled nut is often used instead of a taper pin on American clocks, but
you should still have a domed collet or at least a washer behind to keep the
minute hand under friction tension and, importantly, in correct position for
the motion work pin under the dial to lift the strike on the hour and half
hour. Can you hear the pin lift and drop when you advance the hands?

He did say that he hears a click on the hour and half hour, which
presumably is the Lifting Piece being released by the pins on the hour
wheel.

Then the strike train may be relucrant to run through worn pivot holes. The
very gradual lift and drop can occur while the warning wheel remains static.
The inertia is overcome when triggered by hand. Also the spring could be
'set' and tired, especialy when fully wound.

Ian

[Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer]

... Also the spring could be
'set' and tired, especialy when fully wound.

Not heard that terminology before; presumably would
be what most people would refer to as over wound?

[Ian Partridge]

Post by Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer

... Also the spring could be
'set' and tired, especialy when fully wound.

Not heard that terminology before; presumably would
be what most people would refer to as over wound?

"Set" is when a spring is removed and released it opens out, but because the
spring has lost some springyness, it adopts a tired, coiled-up shape rather
than opening out completely. With American open springs, like the OP's Seth
Thomas, the old oil gums up and when fully wound the spring sticks to
itself. As spring unwinds it will often make a noisy "clunk" as the coils
suddenly release. I found that old American clock springs were often in this
state. If I could not find an alternative new spring, I would reform the old
springs with thumbs pressure to straighten out the unwanted curve and
thoroughly brush grain the sides of the spring along its entire length with
course emory cloth. This removes friction. This enables the spring to
function as it should.

Ian

[Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer]

Post by Ian Partridge

Post by Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer

... Also the spring could be
'set' and tired, especialy when fully wound.

Not heard that terminology before; presumably would
be what most people would refer to as over wound?

"Set" is when a spring is removed and released it opens out, but because the
spring has lost some springyness, it adopts a tired, coiled-up shape rather
than opening out completely. With American open springs, like the OP's Seth
Thomas, the old oil gums up and when fully wound the spring sticks to
itself. As spring unwinds it will often make a noisy "clunk" as the coils
suddenly release. I found that old American clock springs were often in this
state. If I could not find an alternative new spring, I would reform the old
springs with thumbs pressure to straighten out the unwanted curve and
thoroughly brush grain the sides of the spring along its entire length with
course emory cloth. This removes friction. This enables the spring to
function as it should.

While you're on, something I picked up suggested that springs should not
be subjected to ammonia based cleaning fluids. Did I hear right?

[Ian Partridge]

Post by Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer

Post by Ian Partridge

Post by Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer

... Also the spring could be
'set' and tired, especialy when fully wound.

Not heard that terminology before; presumably would
be what most people would refer to as over wound?

"Set" is when a spring is removed and released it opens out, but because the
spring has lost some springyness, it adopts a tired, coiled-up shape rather
than opening out completely. With American open springs, like the OP's Seth
Thomas, the old oil gums up and when fully wound the spring sticks to
itself. As spring unwinds it will often make a noisy "clunk" as the coils
suddenly release. I found that old American clock springs were often in this
state. If I could not find an alternative new spring, I would reform the old
springs with thumbs pressure to straighten out the unwanted curve and
thoroughly brush grain the sides of the spring along its entire length with
course emory cloth. This removes friction. This enables the spring to
function as it should.

While you're on, something I picked up suggested that springs should not
be subjected to ammonia based cleaning fluids. Did I hear right?

Springs ought to be removed before cleaning. Obviously springs need be
removed from spring barrels. Amoniated water and detergents in the cleaning
solution will cause rust. So screws and springs need to be removed and
cleaned separately. I can't see how amonia could affect springs other than
encouraging rust.

Ian

[Adrian Britton]

Post by Ian Partridge

Post by Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer

Post by Ian Partridge

Post by Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer

... Also the spring could be
'set' and tired, especialy when fully wound.

Not heard that terminology before; presumably would
be what most people would refer to as over wound?

"Set" is when a spring is removed and released it opens out, but because the
spring has lost some springyness, it adopts a tired, coiled-up shape rather
than opening out completely. With American open springs, like the OP's Seth
Thomas, the old oil gums up and when fully wound the spring sticks to
itself. As spring unwinds it will often make a noisy "clunk" as the coils
suddenly release. I found that old American clock springs were often in this
state. If I could not find an alternative new spring, I would reform the old
springs with thumbs pressure to straighten out the unwanted curve and
thoroughly brush grain the sides of the spring along its entire length with
course emory cloth. This removes friction. This enables the spring to
function as it should.

While you're on, something I picked up suggested that springs should not
be subjected to ammonia based cleaning fluids. Did I hear right?

Springs ought to be removed before cleaning. Obviously springs need be
removed from spring barrels. Amoniated water and detergents in the cleaning
solution will cause rust. So screws and springs need to be removed and
cleaned separately. I can't see how amonia could affect springs other than
encouraging rust.
Ian

Well the clock stopped sometime yesterday while I was at work. I put it at about 6 days of "time" I have decided to see if I can get the "Chime" spring to the same unwound state as the "time" spring.
I lifted the lever last night for awhile and as it was working the hammer up and down I did hear the "clunk" Ian mentioned. I see that it is the "Chime" spring slipping against itself as tension is being released. I only manually relased the lever for a short duration as I don't want to cause any more damage by doing this for a long extended time.
I am hoping over the next day or so to try to get it to a complete state of being unwound as the "time" spring currently is.
I have also decided that I feel I have enough skill to be able to at least "remove" the assembly from the case. This will give me the opportunity to examine the assembly that is hidden behind the face to look for any worn or damaged parts...it will also give me an opportunity to clean the case without the clock assembly in it. All I've done so far is just "blow it off".
Also with the assembly out I am hoping to get better pictures of the assenbly as pictures in the case, both with and without a flash are none to clear.
Is there a way to post pictures from this site? If not I will maybe post them pubically on Facebook or some other social media site.
Gentlemen thank you for your comments and replies about "about Auntie Rose's clock that my Aunt Meg inherited" that I now have been given care of.

Adrian

[Ian Partridge]

Post by Ian Partridge

Post by Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer

Post by Ian Partridge

Post by Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer

... Also the spring could be
'set' and tired, especialy when fully wound.

Not heard that terminology before; presumably would
be what most people would refer to as over wound?

"Set" is when a spring is removed and released it opens out, but
because
the
spring has lost some springyness, it adopts a tired, coiled-up shape rather
than opening out completely. With American open springs, like the OP's Seth
Thomas, the old oil gums up and when fully wound the spring sticks to
itself. As spring unwinds it will often make a noisy "clunk" as the coils
suddenly release. I found that old American clock springs were often in this
state. If I could not find an alternative new spring, I would reform
the
old
springs with thumbs pressure to straighten out the unwanted curve and
thoroughly brush grain the sides of the spring along its entire length with
course emory cloth. This removes friction. This enables the spring to
function as it should.

While you're on, something I picked up suggested that springs should not
be subjected to ammonia based cleaning fluids. Did I hear right?

Springs ought to be removed before cleaning. Obviously springs need be
removed from spring barrels. Amoniated water and detergents in the cleaning
solution will cause rust. So screws and springs need to be removed and
cleaned separately. I can't see how amonia could affect springs other than
encouraging rust.
Ian

Well the clock stopped sometime yesterday while I was at work. I put it at
about 6 days of "time" I have decided to see if I can get the "Chime" spring
to the same unwound state as the "time" spring.
I lifted the lever last night for awhile and as it was working the hammer up
and down I did hear the "clunk" Ian mentioned. I see that it is the "Chime"
spring slipping against itself as tension is being released. I only manually
relased the lever for a short duration as I don't want to cause any more
damage by doing this for a long extended time.
I am hoping over the next day or so to try to get it to a complete state of
being unwound as the "time" spring currently is.
I have also decided that I feel I have enough skill to be able to at least
"remove" the assembly from the case. This will give me the opportunity to
examine the assembly that is hidden behind the face to look for any worn or
damaged parts...it will also give me an opportunity to clean the case
without the clock assembly in it. All I've done so far is just "blow it
off".
Also with the assembly out I am hoping to get better pictures of the
assenbly as pictures in the case, both with and without a flash are none to
clear.
Is there a way to post pictures from this site? If not I will maybe post
them pubically on Facebook or some other social media site.
Gentlemen thank you for your comments and replies about "about Auntie Rose's
clock that my Aunt Meg inherited" that I now have been given care of.

Adrian

I think it is OK to let the strike run down fully without harm as it has
countweel strike. Also if you want to study the clock working, it is very
easy to simply remove the bezal and dial to reveal the frontplate of the
clock. Repin the hands and you can observe the clock movement "on test." The
'motion work' will be hidden between the plates on a Seth Thomas, but with a
strong light you will be able to observe the lift and drop action through
the cutaway gaps in the frontplate.

Ian