Need advise to repair or not to repair an Ebel Discovery

[Flycaster]

The stem of my 6 year old Ebel Discovery (model 183913) has come out
several times when attempting to set the time and/or date. As it was
out of warranty, it was sent off to Swisstime Care per Ebel's
instructions. Aside from basic service ($86), case back/crystal
gaskets-water resistance test (all at no charge), tube gasket ($5),
crown repair ($138), they said that a "movement exchange" (movement
#621000066) was in order, at a cost of $395. So, for $624, I'll have a
"new" watch.

I'm not sure what the cost of a similar, newer model Ebel Discovery,
will be, but I think it will be somewhere around $1000 at discount. So,
here are my questions:

1. Is it worth it to have my watch repaired as compared to getting the
newer style Discovery (not the bracelet as I assume my old bracelet will
fit the newer watch). Actually, I'm very happy with the old style and
don't feel a need to get the newer style, unless there is a good reason
to do so.

2. Now this is a tough question to ask you guys because it concerns
buying from a discounter. I come from the pharmaceutical industry and
feel that this question is akin to my discussing generic vs brand name
drugs. The $1000 I was estimating would be if I bought from a
discounter. Which would mean that I wouldn't have the Ebel factory
service, but the discounter's. Care to give any comments about the
quality of a discounter's service?

Thanks for your help.

[John S.]

Comments inserted.

Post by Flycaster
The stem of my 6 year old Ebel Discovery (model 183913) has come out
several times when attempting to set the time and/or date. As it was
out of warranty, it was sent off to Swisstime Care per Ebel's
instructions. Aside from basic service ($86), case back/crystal
gaskets-water resistance test (all at no charge), tube gasket ($5),
crown repair ($138), they said that a "movement exchange" (movement
#621000066) was in order, at a cost of $395. So, for $624, I'll have a
"new" watch.

First off, is this an automatic or battery powered movement? I would
want to know wht a movement exchange was needed after only six years.
Watch movements should literally last a lifetime if serviced half-way
regularly. Find out the details.

Post by Flycaster
I'm not sure what the cost of a similar, newer model Ebel Discovery,
will be, but I think it will be somewhere around $1000 at discount. So,
1. Is it worth it to have my watch repaired as compared to getting the
newer style Discovery (not the bracelet as I assume my old bracelet will
fit the newer watch). Actually, I'm very happy with the old style and
don't feel a need to get the newer style, unless there is a good reason
to do so.

It depends on how much you like the watch. For example I have a 34
year old Omega that runs wonderfully and has aged well. For a variety
of reasons I would never part with it even though I could get a new one
for $1,500 or so.

Another point to consider is that your initial purchase price is
probably not recoverable, or if it is you will; get cents on the
dollar. To get a functioning watch you are faced with either paying
$600.00 for repairs or some number > $1,000. You will be faced with
repairs and maintenance in another five years no matter which choice
you make.

Post by Flycaster
2. Now this is a tough question to ask you guys because it concerns
buying from a discounter. I come from the pharmaceutical industry and
feel that this question is akin to my discussing generic vs brand name
drugs. The $1000 I was estimating would be if I bought from a
discounter. Which would mean that I wouldn't have the Ebel factory
service, but the discounter's. Care to give any comments about the
quality of a discounter's service?

Which discounter. I've seen Ebel, Breitling, Omega, Movado, etc., for
sale at numerous discount stores.

A few retailers like Costco and Sams Club provide their own in-house
warranty which is reportedly pretty good. It's a swap-out with few
questions. When buying just be aware that more than one unscrupulous
customer has bought a real watch swapped a fake and returned it for a
refund.

In other cases like Filenes Basement, Marshalls, etc., the warrranty
comes from some importer in Florida or California. I treat those
latter as being worth the paper they are printed on.

Post by Flycaster
Thanks for your help.
--
To email, erase "forgetit"

[Flycaster]

Post by John S.
Comments inserted.

Post by Flycaster
The stem of my 6 year old Ebel Discovery (model 183913) has come out
several times when attempting to set the time and/or date. As it was
out of warranty, it was sent off to Swisstime Care per Ebel's
instructions. Aside from basic service ($86), case back/crystal
gaskets-water resistance test (all at no charge), tube gasket ($5),
crown repair ($138), they said that a "movement exchange" (movement
#621000066) was in order, at a cost of $395. So, for $624, I'll have a
"new" watch.

First off, is this an automatic or battery powered movement? I would
want to know wht a movement exchange was needed after only six years.
Watch movements should literally last a lifetime if serviced half-way
regularly. Find out the details.

Watch is quartz. I will find out the details tomorrow.

Post by John S.
It depends on how much you like the watch. For example I have a 34
year old Omega that runs wonderfully and has aged well. For a variety
of reasons I would never part with it even though I could get a new one
for $1,500 or so.

I like the watch and really don't mind keeping the older style.

Post by John S.
Which discounter.

I'd choose an internet seller that has a long history of doing business.

[Jack Denver]

"Swisstime" wants to take you to the cleaners, badly. Your watch has a
standard 3 hand calendar quartz movement. I don't know the precise caliber
(model) in your watch but usually movements of this general type cost under
$30 and many under $10. Even including the labor for installation, you
should be able to get your watch back in shape for around $100 or so.
Find a local independent watchmaker that does the work on premises.

Whatever you do, don't repeat your mistake by buying another one of these
remarkably overpriced watches. It is not remotely worth $1000 "at discount"
or otherwise.

Post by Flycaster
The stem of my 6 year old Ebel Discovery (model 183913) has come out
several times when attempting to set the time and/or date. As it was out
of warranty, it was sent off to Swisstime Care per Ebel's instructions.
Aside from basic service ($86), case back/crystal gaskets-water resistance
test (all at no charge), tube gasket ($5), crown repair ($138), they said
that a "movement exchange" (movement #621000066) was in order, at a cost
of $395. So, for $624, I'll have a "new" watch.
I'm not sure what the cost of a similar, newer model Ebel Discovery, will
be, but I think it will be somewhere around $1000 at discount. So, here
1. Is it worth it to have my watch repaired as compared to getting the
newer style Discovery (not the bracelet as I assume my old bracelet will
fit the newer watch). Actually, I'm very happy with the old style and
don't feel a need to get the newer style, unless there is a good reason to
do so.
2. Now this is a tough question to ask you guys because it concerns
buying from a discounter. I come from the pharmaceutical industry and
feel that this question is akin to my discussing generic vs brand name
drugs. The $1000 I was estimating would be if I bought from a discounter.
Which would mean that I wouldn't have the Ebel factory service, but the
discounter's. Care to give any comments about the quality of a
discounter's service?
Thanks for your help.
--
To email, erase "forgetit"

[Flycaster]

Post by Jack Denver
"Swisstime" wants to take you to the cleaners, badly. Your watch has a
standard 3 hand calendar quartz movement. I don't know the precise caliber
(model) in your watch but usually movements of this general type cost under
$30 and many under $10. Even including the labor for installation, you
should be able to get your watch back in shape for around $100 or so.
Find a local independent watchmaker that does the work on premises.
Whatever you do, don't repeat your mistake by buying another one of these
remarkably overpriced watches. It is not remotely worth $1000 "at discount"
or otherwise.

Interesting that you should be so down on Ebel for producing highly over
priced watches. I'm only a watch wearer who likes a nice watch, but I
did think that Ebel produced a quality product. I guess I'm wrong, eh?
Anyway, how would you suggest that I find an on-the-premises
watchmaker? And once found, how do I make sure that he doesn't rip me
off? I imagine I could tell him what Swisstime suggested (without the
pricing) be done and then see where he goes with the information. Or,
will I have to give him the watch and let him tinker with it?

[Mooron]

Post by Flycaster

Post by Jack Denver
"Swisstime" wants to take you to the cleaners, badly. Your watch has a
standard 3 hand calendar quartz movement. I don't know the precise caliber
(model) in your watch but usually movements of this general type cost under
$30 and many under $10. Even including the labor for installation, you
should be able to get your watch back in shape for around $100 or so.
Find a local independent watchmaker that does the work on premises.
Whatever you do, don't repeat your mistake by buying another one of these
remarkably overpriced watches. It is not remotely worth $1000 "at discount"
or otherwise.

Interesting that you should be so down on Ebel for producing highly over
priced watches. I'm only a watch wearer who likes a nice watch, but I
did think that Ebel produced a quality product. I guess I'm wrong, eh?
Anyway, how would you suggest that I find an on-the-premises
watchmaker? And once found, how do I make sure that he doesn't rip me
off? I imagine I could tell him what Swisstime suggested (without the
pricing) be done and then see where he goes with the information. Or,
will I have to give him the watch and let him tinker with it?

[Mooron]

Post by Flycaster

Post by Jack Denver
"Swisstime" wants to take you to the cleaners, badly. Your watch has a
standard 3 hand calendar quartz movement. I don't know the precise caliber
(model) in your watch but usually movements of this general type cost under
$30 and many under $10. Even including the labor for installation, you
should be able to get your watch back in shape for around $100 or so.
Find a local independent watchmaker that does the work on premises.
Whatever you do, don't repeat your mistake by buying another one of these
remarkably overpriced watches. It is not remotely worth $1000 "at discount"
or otherwise.

Interesting that you should be so down on Ebel for producing highly over
priced watches. I'm only a watch wearer who likes a nice watch, but I
did think that Ebel produced a quality product. I guess I'm wrong, eh?
Anyway, how would you suggest that I find an on-the-premises
watchmaker? And once found, how do I make sure that he doesn't rip me
off? I imagine I could tell him what Swisstime suggested (without the
pricing) be done and then see where he goes with the information. Or,
will I have to give him the watch and let him tinker with it?

Jack is absolutely right, $395 for a quartz movement is absurd.
A quality quartz movement just doesn't cost that much. They are
more like $8 to $25. And the crown repair for $138 seems way out of
line
too.

Find someone else to do the job.

[germ]

Post by Mooron
Jack is absolutely right, $395 for a quartz movement is absurd.
A quality quartz movement just doesn't cost that much. They are
more like $8 to $25. And the crown repair for $138 seems way out of
line
too.

This reminds me of a then already old HP 9000 series computer we used
when I was in graduate school. One day, a cooling fan started sounding
awful. I called the HP office in my country and they would gladly
replace it....for over $100! (HP was still a good company in the 90s.)
I then opened the computer and determined the model number of the fan.
I could find the same exact model on an electronics part catalog for
less than $10.
But I understand why they would charge $100: They needed to keep an
inventory of all the parts for the computers they were supporting. The
cost of managing the parts was substantial.

So Jack's advice is good: Find someone who can repair the watch for
less.

[Dave Johnson]

Post by Flycaster

Post by Jack Denver
Whatever you do, don't repeat your mistake by buying another one of these
remarkably overpriced watches. It is not remotely worth $1000 "at
discount" or otherwise.

Interesting that you should be so down on Ebel for producing highly over
priced watches. I'm only a watch wearer who likes a nice watch, but I
did think that Ebel produced a quality product. I guess I'm wrong, eh?

It's not Ebel specifically, it's the whole idea of a very expensive quartz
watch. The fact is there's not much difference in performance or longevity
between one Timex or better quartz movement and another, and none of them
are pretty. When you get an expensive Swiss quartz watch, you'll most
likely get the same very good ETA movement as found in a similar mid-priced
Swiss watch. You might get a sapphire crystal instead of mineral, but you
might still get plastic. You might get a better case, possibly solid
precious metal instead of plated.

Diminishing returns hits hard long before you spend $1000 on a quartz watch.

Post by Flycaster
Anyway, how would you suggest that I find an on-the-premises
watchmaker? And once found, how do I make sure that he doesn't rip me
off? I imagine I could tell him what Swisstime suggested (without the
pricing) be done and then see where he goes with the information. Or,
will I have to give him the watch and let him tinker with it?

Call around, and ask jewelry stores (start with smaller non-chain stores)
where they have their watch repair done. If you call enough of them, one
will either tell you where, or they will tell you "Jim does it in-house".
The one I go to has the watchmaker's bench in the front of the store.

[germ]

Post by Dave Johnson
It's not Ebel specifically, it's the whole idea of a very expensive quartz
watch. The fact is there's not much difference in performance or longevity
between one Timex or better quartz movement and another, and none of them
are pretty. When you get an expensive Swiss quartz watch, you'll most
likely get the same very good ETA movement as found in a similar mid-priced
Swiss watch. You might get a sapphire crystal instead of mineral, but you
might still get plastic. You might get a better case, possibly solid
precious metal instead of plated.
Diminishing returns hits hard long before you spend $1000 on a quartz watch.

I strongly disagree on this. I thinks there is a (shrinking) market for
good quality quartz watches. While esthetics are subjective, I have
enjoyed my Rolex Oysterquartz for 21 years now, and it still looks
great. The thermo-compensated movement is extremely accurate, and I
like the convenience of only having to adjust my watch either when
daylight saving time takes effect or when I travel internationally AND
always having perfect time. I have been wearing this watch every day
without any worries while skiing, diving, swimming, etc., and never had
a problem. Seems like a pretty good longevity to me. I would buy it
again, but I don't anticipate having to do it for another 20 years or
so.

[Mooron]

Post by germ

Post by Dave Johnson
Diminishing returns hits hard long before you spend $1000 on a quartz watch.

I strongly disagree on this. I thinks there is a (shrinking) market for
good quality quartz watches.

It depends what you mean by "good quality." My idea of "good quality"
in a quartz watch is one that will keep 1/2 sec/day and run for at
least
2 years on a battery. A $30 Timex meets that criteria. Other things
such as waterproofing, sapphire crystal, nice band, precious metals
etc...
increase the value. To get from $30 to $1000 takes an awful lot of
"other
things." Just what is Ebel giving you to justify the price?

[Dave Johnson]

Post by germ

Post by Dave Johnson
It's not Ebel specifically, it's the whole idea of a very expensive quartz
watch. The fact is there's not much difference in performance or
longevity between one Timex or better quartz movement and another, and
none of them
are pretty. When you get an expensive Swiss quartz watch, you'll most
likely get the same very good ETA movement as found in a similar mid-priced
Swiss watch. You might get a sapphire crystal instead of mineral, but you
might still get plastic. You might get a better case, possibly solid
precious metal instead of plated.
Diminishing returns hits hard long before you spend $1000 on a quartz watch.

I strongly disagree on this. I thinks there is a (shrinking) market for
good quality quartz watches. While esthetics are subjective, I have
enjoyed my Rolex Oysterquartz for 21 years now, and it still looks
great. The thermo-compensated movement is extremely accurate, and I
like the convenience of only having to adjust my watch either when
daylight saving time takes effect or when I travel internationally AND
always having perfect time. I have been wearing this watch every day
without any worries while skiing, diving, swimming, etc., and never had
a problem. Seems like a pretty good longevity to me. I would buy it
again, but I don't anticipate having to do it for another 20 years or
so.

The Oysterquartz may have the best justification for its price of any
expensive quartz watch, but you still get very little more than say, a
Seiko. My $60 Seiko is about 15 years old, and I could say most of the same
things that you say about your Oysterquartz. I rarely took it off,
rarely reset the time, and the only cosmetic problem is solved with a bit
of polish. It was never serviced, never had new gaskets, just a battery
change every few years.

Your Oysterquartz is certainly a better watch than my Seiko. The
differences between most other high-end quartz watches and my Seiko are
mostly cosmetic, and there are very few that could justify a $500+ repair
bill after 6 years.

[germ]

Post by Dave Johnson

Post by germ

Post by Dave Johnson
It's not Ebel specifically, it's the whole idea of a very expensive quartz
watch. The fact is there's not much difference in performance or
longevity between one Timex or better quartz movement and another, and
none of them
are pretty. When you get an expensive Swiss quartz watch, you'll most
likely get the same very good ETA movement as found in a similar mid-priced
Swiss watch. You might get a sapphire crystal instead of mineral, but you
might still get plastic. You might get a better case, possibly solid
precious metal instead of plated.
Diminishing returns hits hard long before you spend $1000 on a quartz watch.

I strongly disagree on this. I thinks there is a (shrinking) market for
good quality quartz watches. While esthetics are subjective, I have
enjoyed my Rolex Oysterquartz for 21 years now, and it still looks
great. The thermo-compensated movement is extremely accurate, and I
like the convenience of only having to adjust my watch either when
daylight saving time takes effect or when I travel internationally AND
always having perfect time. I have been wearing this watch every day
without any worries while skiing, diving, swimming, etc., and never had
a problem. Seems like a pretty good longevity to me. I would buy it
again, but I don't anticipate having to do it for another 20 years or
so.

The Oysterquartz may have the best justification for its price of any
expensive quartz watch, but you still get very little more than say, a
Seiko. My $60 Seiko is about 15 years old, and I could say most of the same
things that you say about your Oysterquartz.

Perhaps, from a purely utilitarian perspective, that may be true. But
personally I like the design of my nice dial, high-quality case and
crystal more than any Seiko. The fact that it's a Rolex adds a certain
panache. Granted, not an intrinsic property of the watch, but at least
something that helps keeping the value.

[ticktock]

I have enjoyed following the exchange on this one, and have to agree
with everyone else who has sounded a note of incredulity at the pricing
you have been quoted.

I am loathe to use the term 'rip-off' because some folks have much
higher overheads than others, whilst some organisations work to much
higher levels of quality in their repair work... but BOY are they
expensive?!

No watch costing as much as yours did (actually in my opinion ..'No
Watch at All' ..should be facing this level of 'repair' after only 6
years (unless you have been seriously abusing it).

You simply 'must' find a local repairer, or even a reliable Mail Order
repairer in your State Capital (or similar ... presuming you are in the
States). You need to get your existing watch reliably repaired rather
than even contemplating buying into this organisations pitch of "we'll
give you a virtually new watch for only $624".

Gee ... I wish my conscience would allow me to give that sort of
'advise' to customers.

Their pitch is just too OTT to be taken seriously. (Is this all a
polite way of confirming that this is indeed a Rip-Off?)


Ian

[Flycaster]

Well, I must say that this has been a most enlightening thread.

Twenty years ago, I had a mechanical S/S Rolex Day/Date Oyster, my first
really good watch. Or, so I thought. I couldn't handle the cost and
time involved when I had to take it in for servicing (I was able to
bring it directly to the Rolex shop in NYC). If I recall correctly,
it would cost $150-$250 every time I brought it in and then it would
take a month or two to get it back. So, about 10, 12 years ago, I got
my first S/S Discovery, the one with the enamel bezel. Not only did I
think it was absolutely stunning and offered the same functionality as
the Rolex (heavyish, but in a thinner case and thinner presentation,
waterproof, and would take some wear and tear...as I rarely took it off
my wrist, but I certainly never abused it). And, of course, the 5 year
warranty was the next best thing to holes in swiss cheese. Service was
excellent and very prompt (here too, I was able to bring it directly to
Ebel repair...in those days they didn't farm out the repairs). After
having it for about 6 years and loving it, I gave it to one of my kids,
and got the S/G model.

I guess I'm trying to say that I had 12 years of very good service and
use of this watch, until now. I am terribly disappointed that Ebel now
farms their work out and according to the consensual validity of your
responses, to a company that apparently is taking me to the cleaners. I
do appreciate your honest, although it does hurt. So, on Monday I'll
begin calling around to find a reputable watch repairer in my neck of
the woods, Boynton Beach-Delray-West Palm Beach area of Florida. Of
course, I anyone out the has a recommentation, please let me know.

Thankss again for all your help.

[John S.]

Post by Flycaster
Well, I must say that this has been a most enlightening thread.
Twenty years ago, I had a mechanical S/S Rolex Day/Date Oyster, my first
really good watch. Or, so I thought. I couldn't handle the cost and
time involved when I had to take it in for servicing (I was able to
bring it directly to the Rolex shop in NYC). If I recall correctly,
it would cost $150-$250 every time I brought it in and then it would
take a month or two to get it back. So, about 10, 12 years ago, I got
my first S/S Discovery, the one with the enamel bezel. Not only did I
think it was absolutely stunning and offered the same functionality as
the Rolex (heavyish, but in a thinner case and thinner presentation,
waterproof, and would take some wear and tear...as I rarely took it off
my wrist, but I certainly never abused it). And, of course, the 5 year
warranty was the next best thing to holes in swiss cheese. Service was
excellent and very prompt (here too, I was able to bring it directly to
Ebel repair...in those days they didn't farm out the repairs). After
having it for about 6 years and loving it, I gave it to one of my kids,
and got the S/G model.
I guess I'm trying to say that I had 12 years of very good service and
use of this watch, until now. I am terribly disappointed that Ebel now
farms their work out and according to the consensual validity of your
responses, to a company that apparently is taking me to the cleaners. I
do appreciate your honest, although it does hurt. So, on Monday I'll
begin calling around to find a reputable watch repairer in my neck of
the woods, Boynton Beach-Delray-West Palm Beach area of Florida. Of
course, I anyone out the has a recommentation, please let me know.
Thankss again for all your help.

I'm puzzled too about the negative and snobbish comments about Ebel and
quartz movents from a few others on this forum. Ebel produce really
good looking watches. From personal experience the Ebel 1911 I gave my
wife 5 years ago is running perfectly and has required one battery
change. And she loves the look, which is most important.

Any quartz or mechanical movement has the potential for just stopping,
so do get it looked at by a good local watch repair shop.

[Jack Denver]

What you said about your wife's Ebel could just as well be said about a
$100 quartz watch. Some of those $100 would have literally the same movement
in them, so they could not possible run any more (or less) reliably than
yours. That is the problem with Ebel and other expensive quartz watches -
it's not that they are bad, it's just that the price is not justifiable in
relation to other much cheaper watches.

Post by John S.
I'm puzzled too about the negative and snobbish comments about Ebel and
quartz movents from a few others on this forum. Ebel produce really
good looking watches. From personal experience the Ebel 1911 I gave my
wife 5 years ago is running perfectly and has required one battery
change. And she loves the look, which is most important.
Any quartz or mechanical movement has the potential for just stopping,
so do get it looked at by a good local watch repair shop.

[John S.]

And one could say the same thing about quartz movements from Rolex,
Omega, Citizen and Seiko. They all produce expensive watches with
quartz timed movements. And as we all know the last two also produce
great numbers of moderately priced watches too.

The price of a Rolex, whether quartz or mechanical powered cannot be
justified in relation to other more reasonably priced alternatives.
Unless one is willing to consider the value and status that some attach
to the brand name itself.

Post by Jack Denver
What you said about your wife's Ebel could just as well be said about a
$100 quartz watch. Some of those $100 would have literally the same movement
in them, so they could not possible run any more (or less) reliably than
yours. That is the problem with Ebel and other expensive quartz watches -
it's not that they are bad, it's just that the price is not justifiable in
relation to other much cheaper watches.

Post by John S.
I'm puzzled too about the negative and snobbish comments about Ebel and
quartz movents from a few others on this forum. Ebel produce really
good looking watches. From personal experience the Ebel 1911 I gave my
wife 5 years ago is running perfectly and has required one battery
change. And she loves the look, which is most important.
Any quartz or mechanical movement has the potential for just stopping,
so do get it looked at by a good local watch repair shop.

[Jack Denver]

At least the Rolex offers exclusivity in movements which gives you at least
a veneer of justification. The Oysterquartz, while still not worth the $,
was at least a sophisticated, nicely finished movement, fully jeweled,
temperature compensated, etc. and which you could get nowhere else. The
Ebel, I'm 99% certain, has an unjeweled under $30 movement - the same
movement that you could get in a $100 Swiss Army watch or somesuch or maybe
a $200 Tissot or Hamilton.

Yes, you are right that the criticism is broader than Ebel. A large % of
the Swiss watch industry (and as we have seen, it's after-sale service
organization) is not much more than a scam. In my local paper today, there
was a investigative piece on a company that sells "mobility scooters" door
to door to the elderly at high prices using questionable tactics. They were
defended in the article by their lawyer, former Clinton shill Lanny Davis (I
never liked that man and like him even less now). The tactic he used to
defend them is that the prices were justified because the scooters were an
"emotional purchase" - they represented "freedom" to they buyers and so were
worth the price asked. If you reduce the scooter to a bucket of bolts,
they're not worth it, but "emotionally" they are. I hear the exact same
argument from the Swiss watch industry and I'm not buying it in either
case - why should they profit by manipulating my emotions? Now this goes on
to some extent in every industry where there is marketing (meaning every
industry, period) but in some industries the ripoff ratio is much lower - if
I buy a $39 Chinese DVD player (or a $50 Seiko 5) I am getting 95% product
and maybe 5% "emotion" but in a watch like the Ebel the ratios are
reversed. We all have our level of tolerance for BS and Ebel exceeds mine
personally.

Post by John S.
And one could say the same thing about quartz movements from Rolex,
Omega, Citizen and Seiko. They all produce expensive watches with
quartz timed movements. And as we all know the last two also produce
great numbers of moderately priced watches too.
The price of a Rolex, whether quartz or mechanical powered cannot be
justified in relation to other more reasonably priced alternatives.
Unless one is willing to consider the value and status that some attach
to the brand name itself.

Post by Jack Denver
What you said about your wife's Ebel could just as well be said about a
$100 quartz watch. Some of those $100 would have literally the same movement
in them, so they could not possible run any more (or less) reliably than
yours. That is the problem with Ebel and other expensive quartz watches -
it's not that they are bad, it's just that the price is not justifiable in
relation to other much cheaper watches.

Post by John S.
I'm puzzled too about the negative and snobbish comments about Ebel and
quartz movents from a few others on this forum. Ebel produce really
good looking watches. From personal experience the Ebel 1911 I gave my
wife 5 years ago is running perfectly and has required one battery
change. And she loves the look, which is most important.
Any quartz or mechanical movement has the potential for just stopping,
so do get it looked at by a good local watch repair shop.

[John S.]

Post by Jack Denver
At least the Rolex offers exclusivity in movements which gives you at least
a veneer of justification. The Oysterquartz, while still not worth the $,
was at least a sophisticated, nicely finished movement, fully jeweled,
temperature compensated, etc. and which you could get nowhere else. The
Ebel, I'm 99% certain, has an unjeweled under $30 movement - the same
movement that you could get in a $100 Swiss Army watch or somesuch or maybe
a $200 Tissot or Hamilton.

Veneer of justification? Lets be honest about this business for one
moment. Jack, our desires in watches are all driven by brand(s) and
their associated images that we enjoy the most. Products from Ebel,
A.P., Rolex or any other watch company obtain most of their value as
pieces of jewelery just as the gold bracelet or sapphire ring does. We
wear them because we like being seen with them on and enjoy the
attention we receive. And we can glance down for the correct time.
Anyone who says they are buying a $7,000 or $70,000 watch because of
it's horlogical significance is engaging in a lot of self deception and
dishing out a large load of B.S.

Hope I'm not misunderstanding you here. As far as the Rolex Oyster
Quartz being the only fully jeweled temperature compensated movement,
well Seiko, Citizen and Omega are among many have sold them for a long
time. My Seiko King Quartz from 1979 uses essentially the same temp
compensated movement used in the 1976 Twin Quartz. And Omega had their
Mega Quartz which was accurate to an impractical degree.

Don't get me wrong - I enjoy wearing my watches for what they bring me.
But let's not dismiss one brand as jewelery when in fact all watches
posess that component.

Post by Jack Denver
Yes, you are right that the criticism is broader than Ebel. A large % of
the Swiss watch industry (and as we have seen, it's after-sale service
organization) is not much more than a scam. In my local paper today, there
was a investigative piece on a company that sells "mobility scooters" door
to door to the elderly at high prices using questionable tactics. They were
defended in the article by their lawyer, former Clinton shill Lanny Davis (I
never liked that man and like him even less now). The tactic he used to
defend them is that the prices were justified because the scooters were an
"emotional purchase" - they represented "freedom" to they buyers and so were
worth the price asked. If you reduce the scooter to a bucket of bolts,
they're not worth it, but "emotionally" they are. I hear the exact same
argument from the Swiss watch industry and I'm not buying it in either
case - why should they profit by manipulating my emotions? Now this goes on
to some extent in every industry where there is marketing (meaning every
industry, period) but in some industries the ripoff ratio is much lower - if
I buy a $39 Chinese DVD player (or a $50 Seiko 5) I am getting 95% product
and maybe 5% "emotion" but in a watch like the Ebel the ratios are
reversed. We all have our level of tolerance for BS and Ebel exceeds mine
personally.

Post by John S.
And one could say the same thing about quartz movements from Rolex,
Omega, Citizen and Seiko. They all produce expensive watches with
quartz timed movements. And as we all know the last two also produce
great numbers of moderately priced watches too.
The price of a Rolex, whether quartz or mechanical powered cannot be
justified in relation to other more reasonably priced alternatives.
Unless one is willing to consider the value and status that some attach
to the brand name itself.

Post by Jack Denver
What you said about your wife's Ebel could just as well be said about a
$100 quartz watch. Some of those $100 would have literally the same movement
in them, so they could not possible run any more (or less) reliably than
yours. That is the problem with Ebel and other expensive quartz watches -
it's not that they are bad, it's just that the price is not justifiable in
relation to other much cheaper watches.

Post by John S.
I'm puzzled too about the negative and snobbish comments about Ebel and
quartz movents from a few others on this forum. Ebel produce really
good looking watches. From personal experience the Ebel 1911 I gave my
wife 5 years ago is running perfectly and has required one battery
change. And she loves the look, which is most important.
Any quartz or mechanical movement has the potential for just stopping,
so do get it looked at by a good local watch repair shop.

[Ed]

Been watching this thread with interest. As a fairly new watch "collector,"
I've gained a lot of knowledge reading this and other boards.

I've learned there is a vast price difference among "fine" Swiss watches
which all use basically the same movements. As I've come to understand this,
it has not really dampened my desire to own some of those more expensive
brands (Ebel, Rado, etc.) which probably use those $30.00 movements.

It reminds me of my experience with automobiles. I remember when, as a much
younger man, I bought those most expensive Oldsmobile on the market.
General Motors, in their infinite wisdom, made a lot of parts
interchangeable, so I learned that the same engine that was in my Olds was
available in a Chevy. The read end in a Chevy was also installed in my
olds. The Delco radio (with a different face) was in my Olds 98. The list
goes on, but you get the drift of what I'm saying here.

Yes, I still have a Timex, a Citizen, a Seiko... and I wear these when
knocking about in the yard, or doing woodworking, etc. They all keep just
as good time as an Ebel, Rado, B&M, AP, or Rolex. And just as perceived
value justified my purchase of fine automobiles, this same perceived value
justifies my desire to own some of the "fine" Swiss watches. The glitz and
the glitter (and chrome) will get me every time. That's what keeps Detroit
in business, and I think probably the Swiss watch industry too!

Ed in Greensboro NC

[Tony Stanford]

The Ebel, I'm 99% certain, has an unjeweled under $30 movement

I think my Ebel 1911 quartz has 5 jewels ... I think. I still agree with
all people say about the cost of these 'luxury' branded watches. If I
knew 14 years ago what I know now, I would never have bought the Ebel.

And, incidentally, my model Ebel came with either a mechanical movement
or a quartz movement in the same case. The cost of the watch was the
same, whatever - and I mean £1100 UKP in 1991!!!

[Flycaster]

Post by Tony Stanford

The Ebel, I'm 99% certain, has an unjeweled under $30 movement

I think my Ebel 1911 quartz has 5 jewels ... I think. I still agree with
all people say about the cost of these 'luxury' branded watches. If I
knew 14 years ago what I know now, I would never have bought the Ebel.
And, incidentally, my model Ebel came with either a mechanical movement
or a quartz movement in the same case. The cost of the watch was the
same, whatever - and I mean £1100 UKP in 1991!!!

[Mooron]

Post by John S.

Post by Flycaster
Well, I must say that this has been a most enlightening thread.
Twenty years ago, I had a mechanical S/S Rolex Day/Date Oyster, my first
really good watch. Or, so I thought. I couldn't handle the cost and
time involved when I had to take it in for servicing (I was able to
bring it directly to the Rolex shop in NYC). If I recall correctly,
it would cost $150-$250 every time I brought it in and then it would
take a month or two to get it back. So, about 10, 12 years ago, I got
my first S/S Discovery, the one with the enamel bezel. Not only did I
think it was absolutely stunning and offered the same functionality as
the Rolex (heavyish, but in a thinner case and thinner presentation,
waterproof, and would take some wear and tear...as I rarely took it off
my wrist, but I certainly never abused it). And, of course, the 5 year
warranty was the next best thing to holes in swiss cheese. Service was
excellent and very prompt (here too, I was able to bring it directly to
Ebel repair...in those days they didn't farm out the repairs). After
having it for about 6 years and loving it, I gave it to one of my kids,
and got the S/G model.
I guess I'm trying to say that I had 12 years of very good service and
use of this watch, until now. I am terribly disappointed that Ebel now
farms their work out and according to the consensual validity of your
responses, to a company that apparently is taking me to the cleaners. I
do appreciate your honest, although it does hurt. So, on Monday I'll
begin calling around to find a reputable watch repairer in my neck of
the woods, Boynton Beach-Delray-West Palm Beach area of Florida. Of
course, I anyone out the has a recommentation, please let me know.
Thankss again for all your help.

I'm puzzled too about the negative and snobbish comments about Ebel and
quartz movents from a few others on this forum. Ebel produce really
good looking watches. From personal experience the Ebel 1911 I gave my
wife 5 years ago is running perfectly and has required one battery
change. And she loves the look, which is most important.
Any quartz or mechanical movement has the potential for just stopping,
so do get it looked at by a good local watch repair shop.

I'm looking at the Ebel Discovery on Overstock.com.
List price is $1925.00 discounted to $644.40.

It has a magnified date window, sapphire crystal, stainless steel case
and bra celet and is water resistant to 200 meters. It looks like a
nice watch, if you like that style.

I just don't see the justification for the price. It's a grossly
overpriced nice watch.

[John S.]

Post by Mooron

Post by John S.

Post by Flycaster
Well, I must say that this has been a most enlightening thread.
Twenty years ago, I had a mechanical S/S Rolex Day/Date Oyster, my first
really good watch. Or, so I thought. I couldn't handle the cost and
time involved when I had to take it in for servicing (I was able to
bring it directly to the Rolex shop in NYC). If I recall correctly,
it would cost $150-$250 every time I brought it in and then it would
take a month or two to get it back. So, about 10, 12 years ago, I got
my first S/S Discovery, the one with the enamel bezel. Not only did I
think it was absolutely stunning and offered the same functionality as
the Rolex (heavyish, but in a thinner case and thinner presentation,
waterproof, and would take some wear and tear...as I rarely took it off
my wrist, but I certainly never abused it). And, of course, the 5 year
warranty was the next best thing to holes in swiss cheese. Service was
excellent and very prompt (here too, I was able to bring it directly to
Ebel repair...in those days they didn't farm out the repairs). After
having it for about 6 years and loving it, I gave it to one of my kids,
and got the S/G model.
I guess I'm trying to say that I had 12 years of very good service and
use of this watch, until now. I am terribly disappointed that Ebel now
farms their work out and according to the consensual validity of your
responses, to a company that apparently is taking me to the cleaners. I
do appreciate your honest, although it does hurt. So, on Monday I'll
begin calling around to find a reputable watch repairer in my neck of
the woods, Boynton Beach-Delray-West Palm Beach area of Florida. Of
course, I anyone out the has a recommentation, please let me know.
Thankss again for all your help.

I'm puzzled too about the negative and snobbish comments about Ebel and
quartz movents from a few others on this forum. Ebel produce really
good looking watches. From personal experience the Ebel 1911 I gave my
wife 5 years ago is running perfectly and has required one battery
change. And she loves the look, which is most important.
Any quartz or mechanical movement has the potential for just stopping,
so do get it looked at by a good local watch repair shop.

I'm looking at the Ebel Discovery on Overstock.com.
List price is $1925.00 discounted to $644.40.
It has a magnified date window, sapphire crystal, stainless steel case
and bra celet and is water resistant to 200 meters. It looks like a
nice watch, if you like that style.
I just don't see the justification for the price. It's a grossly
overpriced nice watch.

And one can draw much the same conclusion when a watch from Rolex,
Journe, A.P., Winston or any other high-end watch company is looked at
closely. In-fact the price of those watches is mostly the result of an
extensive advertising campaign that has created a brand name associated
more with exclusivity and the promise of something horologically
wonderful than providing anything that could possibly justify the
price. That image rather than a reality allows prospective owners to
justify parting with significant sums of money for mechanical
timekeepers of middling performance and sometimes ridiculous design. I
forget the name but some small production company recently produced a
watch with rotating cubes that displayed the time more-or-less, a power
reserve and some kind of inaccurate service indicator for a stunning
price that exceeded $100,000!

Does paying $7,000 for a platinum bezeled bejeweled Rolex Yachtmaster
really get you more of a watch than paying $1,500 for an Ebel 1911?
The Ebel 1911 with a quartz movement will run circles around the Rolex
mechanical movement when it comes to accuracy. And as we all know the
quartz movement represents a huge technological improvement over the
mechanical movement.

[Olaf Peuss]

Post by John S.
Does paying $7,000 for a platinum bezeled bejeweled Rolex Yachtmaster
really get you more of a watch than paying $1,500 for an Ebel 1911?

If you keep your Rolex in a good condition, you can sell it in 10 years
time or so, and will either get your money back or even make a little
profit on the watch (if you buy a Cosmongraph Daytona in SS, you'll be
laughing all the way to the bank when you sell it in mint condition -
double the list price is not unusual). Now, do try that with an Ebel...

Post by John S.
The Ebel 1911 with a quartz movement will run circles around the Rolex
mechanical movement when it comes to accuracy. And as we all know the
quartz movement represents a huge technological improvement over the
mechanical movement.

But nobody needs to spend $1,500 on an Ebel watch to get quartz
precision. Any $5 Walmart watch will run at an accuracy comparable to
that of any quartz watch.

Best regards,
OP

[John S.]

Post by Olaf Peuss

Post by John S.
Does paying $7,000 for a platinum bezeled bejeweled Rolex Yachtmaster
really get you more of a watch than paying $1,500 for an Ebel 1911?

If you keep your Rolex in a good condition, you can sell it in 10 years
time or so, and will either get your money back or even make a little
profit on the watch (if you buy a Cosmongraph Daytona in SS, you'll be
laughing all the way to the bank when you sell it in mint condition -
double the list price is not unusual). Now, do try that with an Ebel...

Well, that is highly unlikely given todays Rolex prices. You are
repeating what has become an urban legend for Rolex - that you can get
your money back (less the time value) if you sell the watch in 10
years. At one time long long ago I believe it was possible if you kept
the watch in mint condition, but no more. Rolex has with it's insanely
high prices made itself into a luxury branded and priced watch and
nothing more.

Post by Olaf Peuss

Post by John S.
The Ebel 1911 with a quartz movement will run circles around the Rolex
mechanical movement when it comes to accuracy. And as we all know the
quartz movement represents a huge technological improvement over the
mechanical movement.

But nobody needs to spend $1,500 on an Ebel watch to get quartz
precision. Any $5 Walmart watch will run at an accuracy comparable to
that of any quartz watch.

If it is the case that quartz movements will outperform mechanicals by
any measure, then why would one want to spend enormous sums for a watch
movement that is admittedly inferior.

Post by Olaf Peuss
Best regards,
OP

[St. John Smythe]

Post by John S.
Well, that is highly unlikely given todays Rolex prices. You are
repeating what has become an urban legend for Rolex - that you can get
your money back (less the time value) if you sell the watch in 10
years. At one time long long ago I believe it was possible if you kept
the watch in mint condition, but no more.

In the nine years between 1971 and 1980, the U.S. price of a two-tone
Datejust went from $380 to $2200, if memory serves. Over that decade,
it wasn't even necessary to keep the watch in mint condition to make a
profit.

[John S.]

Post by St. John Smythe

Post by John S.
Well, that is highly unlikely given todays Rolex prices. You are
repeating what has become an urban legend for Rolex - that you can get
your money back (less the time value) if you sell the watch in 10
years. At one time long long ago I believe it was possible if you kept
the watch in mint condition, but no more.

In the nine years between 1971 and 1980, the U.S. price of a two-tone
Datejust went from $380 to $2200, if memory serves. Over that decade,
it wasn't even necessary to keep the watch in mint condition to make a
profit.

I find it hard to believe that Rolex watches given their current prices
would increase in absolute value. Indeed Rolex has become so
overpriced that there are Rent-a-Rolex stores now.

Post by St. John Smythe
--
St. John
A Puritan is someone who is deathly afraid that someone, somewhere, is
having fun.

[St. John Smythe]

Post by John S.
I find it hard to believe that Rolex watches given their current prices
would increase in absolute value. Indeed Rolex has become so
overpriced that there are Rent-a-Rolex stores now.

Yes, my point was just that: the manic inflation is behind us, and it
seems unlikely that anyone will make money buying a new Rolex today.

[Olaf Peuss]

Post by St. John Smythe

Post by John S.
I find it hard to believe that Rolex watches given their current prices
would increase in absolute value. Indeed Rolex has become so
overpriced that there are Rent-a-Rolex stores now.

Yes, my point was just that: the manic inflation is behind us, and it
seems unlikely that anyone will make money buying a new Rolex today.

So, I conclude from your words then that Rolex will lower, or at least
not increase, their prices for new watches in the years to come so as to
make selling used Rolex watches unprofitable? (Not that I really believe
that.)

There are still long waiting lists for all those who would like to buy a
Daytona in SS. Just ask a Rolex dealer near you if they sold you such a
watch at list price - they'll be LOL & even ROFL and sell them on eBay
for list price + 20 to 50 % markup to those many people who want it now
instead of in two or three years time.

And those Rent-a-Rolex stores are certainly happy to let you have a
Rolex for a week or so - if you let them have a major chunk of money in
return. Over here, renting a Sub D cost about EUR 300 (approx. $ 400)
per week, i.e. three months of Rolex renting cost you as much as buying
the damn thing straight away.

Best regards,
OP

[Mij Adyaw]

How does the $5 Walmart watch look when compared to the Ebel? I have a $1500
Rado Quartz Multifunction and it is an exceptionally good looking watch. Do
not forget that watches are Jewelry and are not just "functional". If I look
at it from the functional aspect, I do not even need a watch to tell me the
time. All that I need is my cellphone.

Post by Olaf Peuss

Post by John S.
Does paying $7,000 for a platinum bezeled bejeweled Rolex Yachtmaster
really get you more of a watch than paying $1,500 for an Ebel 1911?

If you keep your Rolex in a good condition, you can sell it in 10 years
time or so, and will either get your money back or even make a little
profit on the watch (if you buy a Cosmongraph Daytona in SS, you'll be
laughing all the way to the bank when you sell it in mint condition -
double the list price is not unusual). Now, do try that with an Ebel...

Post by John S.
The Ebel 1911 with a quartz movement will run circles around the Rolex
mechanical movement when it comes to accuracy. And as we all know the
quartz movement represents a huge technological improvement over the
mechanical movement.

But nobody needs to spend $1,500 on an Ebel watch to get quartz precision.
Any $5 Walmart watch will run at an accuracy comparable to that of any
quartz watch.
Best regards,
OP

[Olaf Peuss]

Post by Mij Adyaw

Post by Olaf Peuss

Post by John S.
The Ebel 1911 with a quartz movement will run circles around the
Rolex mechanical movement when it comes to accuracy. And as we all
know the quartz movement represents a huge technological improvement
over the mechanical movement.

But nobody needs to spend $1,500 on an Ebel watch to get quartz precision.
Any $5 Walmart watch will run at an accuracy comparable to that of any
quartz watch.

How does the $5 Walmart watch look when compared to the Ebel? I have a $1500
Rado Quartz Multifunction and it is an exceptionally good looking watch. Do
not forget that watches are Jewelry and are not just "functional". If I look
at it from the functional aspect, I do not even need a watch to tell me the
time. All that I need is my cellphone.

Your arguments of looks, beauty etc. are certainly justified but I'm
afraid you're missing the point here. The issue was not beauty but
accuracy. The OP claimed that a quartz-driven Ebel would outperform any
mechanical watch in terms of timekeeping accuracy. I just replied to
that that you needn't spend exorbitant sums of money to get quartz
precision, $5 will buy you quartz precision in a Walmart watch - which
goes to show you how grossly overpriced quartz movements in luxury
watches are when it comes to replacing them.

Best regards,
OP

[Mooron]

Post by Olaf Peuss
Your arguments of looks, beauty etc. are certainly justified but I'm
afraid you're missing the point here. The issue was not beauty but
accuracy. The OP claimed that a quartz-driven Ebel would outperform any
mechanical watch in terms of timekeeping accuracy. I just replied to
that that you needn't spend exorbitant sums of money to get quartz
precision, $5 will buy you quartz precision in a Walmart watch - which
goes to show you how grossly overpriced quartz movements in luxury
watches are when it comes to replacing them.
Best regards,
OP

You're exagerating. Those $5 Walmart watches are junk.
They don't keep good time. You have to spend at least $10
to get a good watch at Walmart.

Mooron

[Jack Denver]

Post by Mooron

Post by Olaf Peuss
Your arguments of looks, beauty etc. are certainly justified but I'm
afraid you're missing the point here. The issue was not beauty but
accuracy. The OP claimed that a quartz-driven Ebel would outperform any
mechanical watch in terms of timekeeping accuracy. I just replied to
that that you needn't spend exorbitant sums of money to get quartz
precision, $5 will buy you quartz precision in a Walmart watch - which
goes to show you how grossly overpriced quartz movements in luxury
watches are when it comes to replacing them.
Best regards,
OP

You're exagerating. Those $5 Walmart watches are junk.
They don't keep good time. You have to spend at least $10
to get a good watch at Walmart.
Mooron

Yes, that has been my experience. I wanted to get my 10 yr. old daughter a
Walmart LCD in the $5 range but they were junk. They "upsold" me to one
that was around $12 and she and I have been very satisfied. It has a Velcro
type band and oversized display and is very readable and keeps good time.
As is typical for LCD's it has stopwatch and alarm functions that would cost
a fortune if the watch were mechanical and it knows which months have 30
days and which have 31.


The "better" watches that they keep behind glass cost even more. To get into
a decent looking Timex at Walmart, an analog with a stainless band instead
of "leather" strap, would run you around $30. But this does get you a rather
nice watch considering the price:

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3999166

So, it's really not fair to compare Ebels to $5 watches or even $10. But
somewhere around $30 you begin to get into valid comparison territory and as
I showed before, by the time you get to $150 the watches are really nipping
at the Ebel's heels.

[Mooron]

Post by Jack Denver
Yes, that has been my experience. I wanted to get my 10 yr. old daughter a
Walmart LCD in the $5 range but they were junk. They "upsold" me to one
that was around $12 and she and I have been very satisfied. It has a Velcro
type band and oversized display and is very readable and keeps good time.
As is typical for LCD's it has stopwatch and alarm functions that would cost
a fortune if the watch were mechanical and it knows which months have 30
days and which have 31.
The "better" watches that they keep behind glass cost even more. To get into
a decent looking Timex at Walmart, an analog with a stainless band instead
of "leather" strap, would run you around $30. But this does get you a rather
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3999166
So, it's really not fair to compare Ebels to $5 watches or even $10. But
somewhere around $30 you begin to get into valid comparison territory and as
I showed before, by the time you get to $150 the watches are really nipping
at the Ebel's heels.

I bought a $10 Walmart watch a few months ago. It has a date
window and a glass crystal. The fake leather band was definitely
on the cheap side, but functional. It's not bad for the price.

$30 will get you a Timex with a 10 year battery life that keeps good
time. This is probably the peak of the value/cost ratio. At $45 you
are into the perpetual calendar watches. Things go downhill from
there.

[germ]

Post by Jack Denver
So, it's really not fair to compare Ebels to $5 watches or even $10. But
somewhere around $30 you begin to get into valid comparison territory and as
I showed before, by the time you get to $150 the watches are really nipping
at the Ebel's heels.

Well, now, who is exaggerating?

[Jack Denver]

If I am, it is only slightly. What real actual features are present in the
Ebel that are not present in those $150 watches (which list for closer to
$300)? The Ebel may have a slightly better finish, but the features
(sapphire crystal, WR, etc.) match pretty much and I'd bet that the
movements might even be identical.

Post by germ

Post by Jack Denver
So, it's really not fair to compare Ebels to $5 watches or even $10. But
somewhere around $30 you begin to get into valid comparison territory and as
I showed before, by the time you get to $150 the watches are really nipping
at the Ebel's heels.

Well, now, who is exaggerating?
--
germ Remove "nospam" to reply

[Olaf Peuss]

Mooron wrote:

[$5 Walmart watch]

Post by Mooron
You're exagerating. Those $5 Walmart watches are junk.
They don't keep good time. You have to spend at least $10
to get a good watch at Walmart.

Of course I was exaggerting. But it's still true that luxuy brands still
charge an arm and a leg for replacement quartz movements. After all,
those "luxury movements" drop off the same fully automated assembly line
at ETA (or one of their subsidiaries) than the ones used for Swatch.

Best regards,
OP

[Flycaster]

Post by Mooron
I just don't see the justification for the price. It's a grossly
overpriced nice watch.

Assuming that when we buy a watch like the Ebel Discovery, we are paying
a lot for the style and looks of the watch...as we do with most other
watches, what is it then that you feel is overpriced? I mean, almost
all quartz watches will keep good time, but I would imagine that there
are other "eye of the beholder" factors that go into paying the price.
Certainly, the Discovery is a piece of jewelry when compared to Timex'
and Seiko's, and other similar watches. However, going beyond the
jewelry aspects, wouldn't you think that the way the Ebel cases are
finished, the water proofing, the sapphire crystal, the crown fitting
mechanisms may be of higher quality than the aforementioned watch types?
Being no horologist, but really liking to look, hold, touch, wear a
fine watch, this is only my opinion, but certain I do appreciate hearing
all your more qualified opinions.

[Jack Denver]

Is the Ebel of higher quality? Yes, up to a certain point, but with a high
degree of diminishing returns. We start out conceding that the Timex and the
Ebel are match on time keeping ability (this is a big difference from the
old, mechanical days where price had a LOT to do with timekeeping ability).
Water resistance is another oversold feature - in a modern watch this
generally means a screw back (and sometimes crown) protected by o-ring
seals. If you can "waterproof" a jar of spaghetti sauce with a screw cap
and a gasket (and you can) , it's not much harder to waterproof a watch
case. Sapphire crystal is a good feature, but the wholesale price of an
uncoated flat sapphire crystal is under $20. Case finish is a little nicer
but the material (stainless) is basically the same so all you are talking
about is a little more labor for more careful polishing.


So how do you get to a $1500 "retail" price for the Ebel. First, 1/2 of that
is "keystone" retail markup. Then of what remains, a couple of hundred
represents Ebel's marketing costs. Strip away excess profits, the return on
the value of the brand, etc. and you are left with a watch that has a direct
manufacturing cost of maybe $75 and should retail for no more than $300.

Here for example are a few watches currently on ebay that match your watch
feature for feature for a "street" price of under $200:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5056547061
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5055415238
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5055256165

So what are you getting for that additional $1000 or so? Essentially
nothing but "emotion" IMHO, emotion being your reaction to Ebel's marketing
and the "position" of Ebel as a brand. Think of it like buying an expensive
French perfume or a designer dress - what comes in the bottle is almost
beside the point compared to the "aura" of the brand.

Post by Mooron
I just don't see the justification for the price. It's a grossly
overpriced nice watch.

Assuming that when we buy a watch like the Ebel Discovery, we are paying a
lot for the style and looks of the watch...as we do with most other
watches, what is it then that you feel is overpriced? I mean, almost all
quartz watches will keep good time, but I would imagine that there are
other "eye of the beholder" factors that go into paying the price.
Certainly, the Discovery is a piece of jewelry when compared to Timex' and
Seiko's, and other similar watches. However, going beyond the jewelry
aspects, wouldn't you think that the way the Ebel cases are finished, the
water proofing, the sapphire crystal, the crown fitting mechanisms may be
of higher quality than the aforementioned watch types? Being no
horologist, but really liking to look, hold, touch, wear a fine watch,
this is only my opinion, but certain I do appreciate hearing all your more
qualified opinions.
--
To email, erase "forgetit"

[germ]

Post by Jack Denver
Is the Ebel of higher quality? Yes, up to a certain point, but with a high
degree of diminishing returns. We start out conceding that the Timex and the
Ebel are match on time keeping ability (this is a big difference from the
old, mechanical days where price had a LOT to do with timekeeping ability).
Water resistance is another oversold feature - in a modern watch this
generally means a screw back (and sometimes crown) protected by o-ring
seals. If you can "waterproof" a jar of spaghetti sauce with a screw cap
and a gasket (and you can) , it's not much harder to waterproof a watch
case. Sapphire crystal is a good feature, but the wholesale price of an
uncoated flat sapphire crystal is under $20. Case finish is a little nicer
but the material (stainless) is basically the same so all you are talking
about is a little more labor for more careful polishing.
So how do you get to a $1500 "retail" price for the Ebel. First, 1/2 of that
is "keystone" retail markup. Then of what remains, a couple of hundred
represents Ebel's marketing costs. Strip away excess profits, the return on
the value of the brand, etc. and you are left with a watch that has a direct
manufacturing cost of maybe $75 and should retail for no more than $300.
Here for example are a few watches currently on ebay that match your watch
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5056547061
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5055415238
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5055256165
So what are you getting for that additional $1000 or so? Essentially
nothing but "emotion" IMHO, emotion being your reaction to Ebel's marketing
and the "position" of Ebel as a brand. Think of it like buying an expensive
French perfume or a designer dress - what comes in the bottle is almost
beside the point compared to the "aura" of the brand.

Jack, I looked at the three watches above. Although I personally don't
like Ebel's style too much, I have to say that those three are clearly
not in the same league. The Ebel is considerably nicer IMHO. Whether it
is worth a ~$1000 premium, it's debatable. As long as some people are
ready to pay the price that Ebel asks for, the watch is not
"overpriced".

I have a little bit of a problem understanding why you fixate so much
on the watch movement. That is only one of the components of a quality
watch, the others being:
- design and style (very important to me personally)
- quality of the case, dial, crystal, and bracelet
- brand name recognition
- support and service organization
Some of those are intrinsic to the watch, some aren't.

In the real world, all of those contribute to the final price of a
watch, and I don't see anything that is particularly wrong about it. If
you are in the know, you will be able to find "bargains" that have a
similar intrinsic value to other "overpriced" watches. More power to
you. But that does not necessarily mean that other people are wrong in
putting more weight on either esthetics or other intangible brand
qualities.

[djohnson]

Post by germ
I have a little bit of a problem understanding why you fixate so much
on the watch movement. That is only one of the components of a quality
- design and style (very important to me personally)
- quality of the case, dial, crystal, and bracelet
- brand name recognition
- support and service organization
Some of those are intrinsic to the watch, some aren't.

If you separate the jewelry from the horological, it actually makes the
situation worse. Even if you consider water and corrosion resistance
to be horological, you can get all that for $50-100, including a bit of
jewelry. You should be able to replace the entire movement and all the
gaskets for well under $100, even with typical markups. I think ti's
very short-sighted for high end watch companies to insist on
overcharging on repairs, and by any standard what Ebel wanted was
overcharging. If I were running a high-end watch company, the original
owner woudl get a 20-30 year guarantee on quartz watches, and low-cost
factory service would be considered part of the advertising budget.

[Jack Denver]

Post by germ
Jack, I looked at the three watches above. Although I personally don't
like Ebel's style too much, I have to say that those three are clearly
not in the same league. The Ebel is considerably nicer IMHO. Whether it
is worth a ~$1000 premium, it's debatable.

That was my main point - the watches I showed were technically equal to the
Ebel, so what is it that you are getting for the $1000 premium? It's clearly
more than absolutely nothing, but is it anywhere near $1000 worth?
Flycaster was speculating that the extra money was for physical attributes
such as sapphire crystal and water resistance and I wanted to show him
that it wasn't for any functional feature. I think the "jewelry" aspect that
some people mention is also oversold - steel watches are essentially
"costume jewelry" and most pieces of costume jewelry are worth less than
$100 because they don't cost all that much to make.


As long as some people are

Post by germ
ready to pay the price that Ebel asks for, the watch is not
"overpriced".
I have a little bit of a problem understanding why you fixate so much
on the watch movement. That is only one of the components of a quality
- design and style (very important to me personally)

Yes, but there are ugly expensive watches and cheap nice looking ones.
Someone else showed a link to a Timex perpetual that I consider to be very
attractive stylewise.

Post by germ
- quality of the case, dial, crystal, and bracelet

We know that all these watches have sapphire crystals. The case,dial and
bracelet may be a little better finished on the Ebel, but $1000 better? No
way.

Post by germ
- brand name recognition

Personally I put very little value on that. YMMV.

Post by germ
- support and service organization

Yes, with Ebel you have the "honor" of having them overcharge you greatly
for that.

Post by germ
Some of those are intrinsic to the watch, some aren't.
In the real world, all of those contribute to the final price of a
watch, and I don't see anything that is particularly wrong about it. If
you are in the know, you will be able to find "bargains" that have a
similar intrinsic value to other "overpriced" watches. More power to
you. But that does not necessarily mean that other people are wrong in
putting more weight on either esthetics or other intangible brand
qualities.
--
germ Remove "nospam" to reply

The manufacturers and their marketing departments will never tell you the
truth about how much of the price of the watch is based on "extrinsics" and
most people would be shocked to find that their $1500 watch cost the
manufacturer under $150 to make. I was when I first found out, and I hope
to even the balance a little and spare others by making this information
more widely available on the internet. If you go into a purchase with full
information and decide to do it anyway, that's fine by me. But most people
(including myself at one time) are under the misimpression that spending
more money on a watch gets you proportionately more physical quality, when
in many cases you get very little more quality in exchange for a whole lot
more money.

[Olaf Peuss]

Post by Jack Denver
The manufacturers and their marketing departments will never tell you the
truth about how much of the price of the watch is based on "extrinsics" and
most people would be shocked to find that their $1500 watch cost the
manufacturer under $150 to make. I was when I first found out, and I hope
to even the balance a little and spare others by making this information
more widely available on the internet. If you go into a purchase with full
information and decide to do it anyway, that's fine by me. But most people
(including myself at one time) are under the misimpression that spending
more money on a watch gets you proportionately more physical quality, when
in many cases you get very little more quality in exchange for a whole lot
more money.

Jack, you should write and publish a book one day, something like "Watch
Buying for Dummies" or something to that extent. I think the whole world
would love you for that except for the watchmaking industry who'd be
eating their hearts out. ;-)

You're right again, as often, that more money won't buy you
proportionately more watch. At one point - and I would estimate this to
be at approx. $1,000 for mechanical watches - you simply won't get more
hands-on value but just more image, prestige, fancy design etc., in one
word, you start paying for the name, and over the odds so.
With quartz watches, I'd say that the turning point is even lower,
perhaps at $300-400 as quartz movements are as cheap to make as dirt.

Best regards,
OP

[Jack Denver]

We could argue about where the "sweet spot" for quartz is, but I'd accept
the figures that you give for quartz as a ceiling, and Mooron's $30 as a
floor. Personally, I'd say about $300 "list" or $150 "street price" -
enough to get you into a sapphire crystal. After sapphire there's very
little "real" in the way of improvements.

I'd set the mechanical sweet spot perhaps a little lower - somewhere around
$250 to $300 delivered street price (again twice that for "list"). For
example, this Sandoz
http://www.pmwf.com/Watches/WATCHSALES/SandozSINSub40BlackBlackAug03/SandozSIN40BlackBlackAug03.htm

has all the basic features you would want - ETA 2824, sapphire, 100M WR ,
etc. for $216+shipping. It's hard to get "sweeter" than that. Yes, spending
another $750 will get you more - 2892, thicker bracelet, better finish, etc.
but we are looking for the point of inflection where the value/price ratio
starts to decrease - its very hard to say that the next $750 will get you
3x more watch or even that another $250 will get you a watch that is twice
as good.

Post by Olaf Peuss
Jack, you should write and publish a book one day, something like "Watch
Buying for Dummies" or something to that extent. I think the whole world
would love you for that except for the watchmaking industry who'd be
eating their hearts out. ;-)
You're right again, as often, that more money won't buy you
proportionately more watch. At one point - and I would estimate this to be
at approx. $1,000 for mechanical watches - you simply won't get more
hands-on value but just more image, prestige, fancy design etc., in one
word, you start paying for the name, and over the odds so.
With quartz watches, I'd say that the turning point is even lower, perhaps
at $300-400 as quartz movements are as cheap to make as dirt.
Best regards,
OP

[Honest John]

"Olaf Peuss" <***@privacy.net> wrote in message

"Jack, you should write and publish a book one day, something like "Watch
Buying for Dummies" or something to that extent."

I submit: "General Jack's Watch Buying Guide"

I salute you, sir !

Sgt. H.J.

[Mooron]

Post by Olaf Peuss
You're right again, as often, that more money won't buy you
proportionately more watch. At one point - and I would estimate this to
be at approx. $1,000 for mechanical watches - you simply won't get more
hands-on value but just more image, prestige, fancy design etc., in one
word, you start paying for the name, and over the odds so.
With quartz watches, I'd say that the turning point is even lower,
perhaps at $300-400 as quartz movements are as cheap to make as dirt.
Best regards,
OP

You don't think $300 is a bit much to pay for a quartz watch?
That's more than I want to pay. At that price you have to worry
about something happening to your watch and it's too expensive to
just throw away when it breaks. I hate repairs.

Mooron

[Jack Denver]

Why does a quartz watch have to be a throwaway? Aren't you entitled to wear
something nice looking on your wrist, and that will stay nice looking (e.g.
with a sapphire crystal)? If it breaks, you can always put a new movement
in it, which should not be that expensive. I like even my "beater" quartz
watches to be decent looking. I do have a "throwaway" that I reserve for
absolutely the filthiest chores - when I am digging in the garden, working
on the car, etc. but other than that life is too short to wear cheap & nasty
watches.

Post by Mooron

Post by Olaf Peuss
You're right again, as often, that more money won't buy you
proportionately more watch. At one point - and I would estimate this to
be at approx. $1,000 for mechanical watches - you simply won't get more
hands-on value but just more image, prestige, fancy design etc., in one
word, you start paying for the name, and over the odds so.
With quartz watches, I'd say that the turning point is even lower,
perhaps at $300-400 as quartz movements are as cheap to make as dirt.
Best regards,
OP

You don't think $300 is a bit much to pay for a quartz watch?
That's more than I want to pay. At that price you have to worry
about something happening to your watch and it's too expensive to
just throw away when it breaks. I hate repairs.
Mooron

[Mooron]

Post by Jack Denver
Why does a quartz watch have to be a throwaway? Aren't you entitled to wear
something nice looking on your wrist, and that will stay nice looking (e.g.
with a sapphire crystal)? If it breaks, you can always put a new movement
in it, which should not be that expensive. I like even my "beater" quartz
watches to be decent looking. I do have a "throwaway" that I reserve for
absolutely the filthiest chores - when I am digging in the garden, working
on the car, etc. but other than that life is too short to wear cheap & nasty
watches.

Post by Mooron

Post by Olaf Peuss
You're right again, as often, that more money won't buy you
proportionately more watch. At one point - and I would estimate this to
be at approx. $1,000 for mechanical watches - you simply won't get more
hands-on value but just more image, prestige, fancy design etc., in one
word, you start paying for the name, and over the odds so.
With quartz watches, I'd say that the turning point is even lower,
perhaps at $300-400 as quartz movements are as cheap to make as dirt.
Best regards,
OP

You don't think $300 is a bit much to pay for a quartz watch?
That's more than I want to pay. At that price you have to worry
about something happening to your watch and it's too expensive to
just throw away when it breaks. I hate repairs.
Mooron

I might go the $150 street price if it was something I really liked.
I really like my $52 Timex. It's pretty close to what I consider a
perfect watch. Other people may think that's crazy, but I like it.
I just don't feel the need to buy anything better.

Mooron

[Honest John]

"Mooron" <***@mooron.com> wrote in message

"I really like my $52 Timex. It's pretty close to what I consider a
perfect watch. Other people may think that's crazy, but I like it.
I just don't feel the need to buy anything better."

That ain't crazy, that's RIGHT-ON !!!

Sgt. H.J.

[germ]

Post by Olaf Peuss
You're right again, as often, that more money won't buy you
proportionately more watch.

But that is a general rule that applies to many manufactured good, from
cars to clothes to wines, etc.

Taking the car example, a lot of people around here (Northern
California) seem willing to spend a lot of money on BMWs when a Ford
would do. Obviously there are many reasons why people do that, one of
them being that they enjoy a "better" car (for real or perceived
qualities).

For cars as for watches, approaching the higher end means a law of
diminishing returns of sorts: A slight improvement means a lot more
money (ceramic brake rotors, costing 2-3 times metal ones, are only
slightly better, just to make an example).

Post by Olaf Peuss
At one point - and I would estimate this to
be at approx. $1,000 for mechanical watches - you simply won't get more
hands-on value but just more image, prestige, fancy design etc., in one
word, you start paying for the name, and over the odds so.
With quartz watches, I'd say that the turning point is even lower,
perhaps at $300-400 as quartz movements are as cheap to make as dirt.

Again, thes seems a rather utilitarian view of the world. Personally,
I am glad someone is ready to fork over the money and has the passion
to make some excesses like a Lamorghini Gallardo possible. It certainly
makes the world a lot more interesting!

[Jack Denver]

Would you feel the same way if it turned out that the Gallardo had a 92hp
Fiat engine in it? And that Lamborghini had sealed up the hood so that
buyers were unaware of that fact? Cause that is pretty much the situation
with watches like the Ebel.

There have been cases where there were cars that were just rebadges with
slightly better upholstery and more chrome (the Cadillac Cimarron which was
really a slightly dressed up Chevy Cavalier). These cars have generally
been failures in the market because buyers see thru the deception. A
Gallardo has very real differences from a Ford, much more so than an Ebel
does from a Tissot.

Post by germ

Post by Olaf Peuss
You're right again, as often, that more money won't buy you
proportionately more watch.

But that is a general rule that applies to many manufactured good, from
cars to clothes to wines, etc.
Taking the car example, a lot of people around here (Northern
California) seem willing to spend a lot of money on BMWs when a Ford
would do. Obviously there are many reasons why people do that, one of
them being that they enjoy a "better" car (for real or perceived
qualities).
For cars as for watches, approaching the higher end means a law of
diminishing returns of sorts: A slight improvement means a lot more
money (ceramic brake rotors, costing 2-3 times metal ones, are only
slightly better, just to make an example).

Post by Olaf Peuss
At one point - and I would estimate this to
be at approx. $1,000 for mechanical watches - you simply won't get more
hands-on value but just more image, prestige, fancy design etc., in one
word, you start paying for the name, and over the odds so.
With quartz watches, I'd say that the turning point is even lower,
perhaps at $300-400 as quartz movements are as cheap to make as dirt.

Again, thes seems a rather utilitarian view of the world. Personally,
I am glad someone is ready to fork over the money and has the passion
to make some excesses like a Lamorghini Gallardo possible. It certainly
makes the world a lot more interesting!
--
germ Remove "nospam" to reply

[Honest John]

"Jack Denver" <***@netscape.net> wrote in message

"(the Cadillac Cimarron which was really a slightly dressed up Chevy
Cavalier)."

Not too long ago, I owned one, and it seemed to be a pretty good car until
it started falling apart.

[germ]

Post by Jack Denver
Would you feel the same way if it turned out that the Gallardo had a 92hp
Fiat engine in it? And that Lamborghini had sealed up the hood so that
buyers were unaware of that fact? Cause that is pretty much the situation
with watches like the Ebel.

I disagree. There is no 1:1 correspondence between cars and watches, so
it's unfair to say that the Ebel is like a Gallardo with a Fiat engine.

[Frank Adam]

Post by germ

Post by Jack Denver
Would you feel the same way if it turned out that the Gallardo had a 92hp
Fiat engine in it? And that Lamborghini had sealed up the hood so that
buyers were unaware of that fact? Cause that is pretty much the situation
with watches like the Ebel.

I disagree. There is no 1:1 correspondence between cars and watches, so
it's unfair to say that the Ebel is like a Gallardo with a Fiat engine.

Well yes and no.
ETA = Ford or GM. Good, but run of the mill stuff.
It ain't no Bentley, no Merc or even a BMW. So finding a Ford engine
in those chassis, stamped to the brand and having the spark plug leads
gold plated, would be somewhat of a surprise to most of us.

[germ]

Post by Jack Denver

Post by germ
I have a little bit of a problem understanding why you fixate so much
on the watch movement. That is only one of the components of a quality
- design and style (very important to me personally)

Yes, but there are ugly expensive watches and cheap nice looking ones.
Someone else showed a link to a Timex perpetual that I consider to be very
attractive stylewise.

Possible, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

In summary, it's a whole package that you get, with the brand
recognition as well as higher quality.

[Tony Stanford]

Post by Jack Denver
So what are you getting for that additional $1000 or so? Essentially
nothing but "emotion" IMHO, emotion being your reaction to Ebel's
marketing and the "position" of Ebel as a brand. Think of it like
buying an expensive French perfume or a designer dress - what comes in
the bottle is almost beside the point compared to the "aura" of the brand.

This general discussion about high-priced watches keeps coming up.
(Still, discussions are like sexual partners: it's nice to find one you
like and keep having it.)

This paragraph sums it up: the difference is between a functional, good
looking watch without the hype of a super-brand, and high-priced piece
of jewellery+marketing. The jewellery element (and some of that is no
more than polish) has nothing to do with the functionality or
reliability. Some people like jewellery and are willing to pay for it.
Some people like to pay over the odds for designer jeans...

In the same way, my 7-year-old Toyota, that has not needed a repair
since it was new, is functionally superior to a BMW that costs 3 times
the price. Nuff said.

[Mooron]

Post by Flycaster

Post by Mooron
I just don't see the justification for the price. It's a grossly
overpriced nice watch.

Assuming that when we buy a watch like the Ebel Discovery, we are paying
a lot for the style and looks of the watch...as we do with most other
watches, what is it then that you feel is overpriced? I mean, almost
all quartz watches will keep good time, but I would imagine that there
are other "eye of the beholder" factors that go into paying the price.
Certainly, the Discovery is a piece of jewelry when compared to Timex'
and Seiko's, and other similar watches. However, going beyond the
jewelry aspects, wouldn't you think that the way the Ebel cases are
finished, the water proofing, the sapphire crystal, the crown fitting
mechanisms may be of higher quality than the aforementioned watch types?
Being no horologist, but really liking to look, hold, touch, wear a
fine watch, this is only my opinion, but certain I do appreciate hearing
all your more qualified opinions.
--
To email, erase "forgetit"

I don't pay a lot for the style and looks of a watch. I'm a
pragmatist, I want a watch to tell me the time. I want a dial that is
clearly marked and hands that are easy to see with good contrast
against the dial so I can read the time with a quick glance. I don't
want any fancy stuff getting in the way. I'm looking at a picture of
the Ebel Discovery on overstock.com and frankly, I don't like the
style. The dial is too small for the size of the watch and I hate
metal bracelets. The hexagonal shape of the case makes me want to take
a big socket wrench to it. Maybe that's how they screw the case back
on. The screw heads on the front of the watch make it appear the
engineers at Ebel are too dumb to know how a watch should be held
together. I think my $52 Timex Perpetual
(http://www.timex.com/bin/detail.tmx?item=753048127276) is a better
looking watch, though lately I've been wearing a Seiko 5. The
features, water proofing, sapphire crystal etc. shouldn't cost that
much. There is no justification for the list price of $1925.

[Jack Denver]

That's funny - I've also been very attracted to that particular model of
Timex perpetual. It looks very readable. I would have gotten it already
except that my wife would kill me if I brought any more watches home. How
does it look in person? I'll bet if you put it on a higher quality band it
would look a lot better.

The ebel is not my style either but there's no accounting for taste. There
is accounting for technical merit, and with its true perpetual calendar (no
resetting at the end of short months, ever) and 7 year battery that Timex
definitely has more than the ebel. That may sound strange but its definitely
true that the Timex is the more technically up to date and sophisticated
watch while the ebel is just same old same old on the inside.

BTW, the ebel they are selling on overstock is not quite the same model as
Flycaster's. His is apparently 2 tone (yellow/white) and has Roman #s from
the model # he gave. Personally I like it even less , but again that's a
matter of personal taste and I won't judge for others. I've never quite
understood why you would want to put screws on the front of a watch but this
appears to be a popular styling cue. I suppose it is all copied from the
Royal Oak. I guess it is supposed to be a "let the seams show" approach
along the lines of the Pompidou Center where they ran the pipes on the
outside of the building.

Post by Mooron

Post by Flycaster

Post by Mooron
I just don't see the justification for the price. It's a grossly
overpriced nice watch.

Assuming that when we buy a watch like the Ebel Discovery, we are paying
a lot for the style and looks of the watch...as we do with most other
watches, what is it then that you feel is overpriced? I mean, almost
all quartz watches will keep good time, but I would imagine that there
are other "eye of the beholder" factors that go into paying the price.
Certainly, the Discovery is a piece of jewelry when compared to Timex'
and Seiko's, and other similar watches. However, going beyond the
jewelry aspects, wouldn't you think that the way the Ebel cases are
finished, the water proofing, the sapphire crystal, the crown fitting
mechanisms may be of higher quality than the aforementioned watch types?
Being no horologist, but really liking to look, hold, touch, wear a
fine watch, this is only my opinion, but certain I do appreciate hearing
all your more qualified opinions.
--
To email, erase "forgetit"

I don't pay a lot for the style and looks of a watch. I'm a
pragmatist, I want a watch to tell me the time. I want a dial that is
clearly marked and hands that are easy to see with good contrast
against the dial so I can read the time with a quick glance. I don't
want any fancy stuff getting in the way. I'm looking at a picture of
the Ebel Discovery on overstock.com and frankly, I don't like the
style. The dial is too small for the size of the watch and I hate
metal bracelets. The hexagonal shape of the case makes me want to take
a big socket wrench to it. Maybe that's how they screw the case back
on. The screw heads on the front of the watch make it appear the
engineers at Ebel are too dumb to know how a watch should be held
together. I think my $52 Timex Perpetual
(http://www.timex.com/bin/detail.tmx?item=753048127276) is a better
looking watch, though lately I've been wearing a Seiko 5. The
features, water proofing, sapphire crystal etc. shouldn't cost that
much. There is no justification for the list price of $1925.
--
Mooron

[Mooron]

Post by Jack Denver
That's funny - I've also been very attracted to that particular model of
Timex perpetual. It looks very readable. I would have gotten it already
except that my wife would kill me if I brought any more watches home. How
does it look in person? I'll bet if you put it on a higher quality band it
would look a lot better.

That particular model, 2D461, must be popular with a lot of people. It
was hard to find for a while. Now I see it everywhere. Most
department stores sell that model. I like the look it has very clean
sharp markings on the dial and is very easy to read. The lume is
worthless. It's dim and fades quickly. The Indiglo feature makes the
lume pointless anyway. I replaced the band with a nylon sports strap
with velcro closure. I also have another one almost exactly like it
with a white dial.

[Honest John]

"Mooron" <***@mooron.com> wrote in message

". I think my $52 Timex Perpetual
(http://www.timex.com/bin/detail.tmx?item=753048127276) is a better
looking watch"

Sgt. H.J. approves of the above watch !!

[Mooron]

Post by Flycaster

Post by Mooron
I just don't see the justification for the price. It's a grossly
overpriced nice watch.

Assuming that when we buy a watch like the Ebel Discovery, we are paying
a lot for the style and looks of the watch...as we do with most other
watches, what is it then that you feel is overpriced? I mean, almost
all quartz watches will keep good time, but I would imagine that there
are other "eye of the beholder" factors that go into paying the price.
Certainly, the Discovery is a piece of jewelry when compared to Timex'
and Seiko's, and other similar watches. However, going beyond the
jewelry aspects, wouldn't you think that the way the Ebel cases are
finished, the water proofing, the sapphire crystal, the crown fitting
mechanisms may be of higher quality than the aforementioned watch types?
Being no horologist, but really liking to look, hold, touch, wear a
fine watch, this is only my opinion, but certain I do appreciate hearing
all your more qualified opinions.
--
To email, erase "forgetit"

I kinda feel bad about that last post. I shouldn't trash your watch
like that.
I'm not into the jewelry aspect of watch collecting. Some people are.
I probably have over $1000 in watches that I have never worn and never
will wear which is actually pretty dumb. I buy them because I want to.
If you like your watch and are willing to pay the price and can afford
it, that's all that matters. You should however, have a good idea of
what stuff is worth to make a informed decision as to what to buy.

[Jack Denver]

I want to make it clear to Flycaster as well that I'm not trying to put him
down for having bought this watch. In my younger and more naive days I made
similar unwise purchases. I was shocked when I found out my $1500 Concord
had a $30 movement in it.

Post by Mooron

Post by Flycaster

Post by Mooron
I just don't see the justification for the price. It's a grossly
overpriced nice watch.

Assuming that when we buy a watch like the Ebel Discovery, we are paying
a lot for the style and looks of the watch...as we do with most other
watches, what is it then that you feel is overpriced? I mean, almost
all quartz watches will keep good time, but I would imagine that there
are other "eye of the beholder" factors that go into paying the price.
Certainly, the Discovery is a piece of jewelry when compared to Timex'
and Seiko's, and other similar watches. However, going beyond the
jewelry aspects, wouldn't you think that the way the Ebel cases are
finished, the water proofing, the sapphire crystal, the crown fitting
mechanisms may be of higher quality than the aforementioned watch types?
Being no horologist, but really liking to look, hold, touch, wear a
fine watch, this is only my opinion, but certain I do appreciate hearing
all your more qualified opinions.
--
To email, erase "forgetit"

I kinda feel bad about that last post. I shouldn't trash your watch
like that.
I'm not into the jewelry aspect of watch collecting. Some people are.
I probably have over $1000 in watches that I have never worn and never
will wear which is actually pretty dumb. I buy them because I want to.
If you like your watch and are willing to pay the price and can afford
it, that's all that matters. You should however, have a good idea of
what stuff is worth to make a informed decision as to what to buy.
--
Mooron

[Flycaster]

Post by Jack Denver
I want to make it clear to Flycaster as well that I'm not trying to put him
down for having bought this watch. In my younger and more naive days I made
similar unwise purchases. I was shocked when I found out my $1500 Concord
had a $30 movement in it.

No put down perceived. As I read all these threads, I see that the
differences in opinion about the "value" of a watch appears to swing
between an overall jewelry/emotional/aesthetic point of view, an
accuracy in time-keeping view, or some combination of the two views.
One is just as valid as the other and the true value is in the eye of
the beholder.

[Flycaster]

I just spoke with Swisstime Care repair about why I'm being charged so
much for a relatively inexpensive movement (inexpensive as you folks
have repeately wrote) replacement. So, here's their tech's explanation.
The movement is definitely broken and needs to be replaced. He said
that the movement is made by Ebel, not someone else. The movement is a
jeweled 83 caliber movement. Is this movement in the same class as your
$30-50 Seiko-type movement? Does it really cost more? Are their any
benefits of this movement over the less expensive movements?

[John S.]

Post by Flycaster
I just spoke with Swisstime Care repair about why I'm being charged so
much for a relatively inexpensive movement (inexpensive as you folks
have repeately wrote) replacement. So, here's their tech's explanation.
The movement is definitely broken and needs to be replaced. He said
that the movement is made by Ebel, not someone else. The movement is a
jeweled 83 caliber movement. Is this movement in the same class as your
$30-50 Seiko-type movement? Does it really cost more? Are their any
benefits of this movement over the less expensive movements?
--
To email, erase "forgetit"

That it is jeweled is no big deal. I bought a new Allenby watch on
Ebay for $15.00 and it had a lovely to look at 15 jewel quartz movement
inside.

Did he say what was broken in the movement?
Did a battery leak or did moisture get inside? Either can be a death
sentence for an electronic movement.

Otherwise, if you like the watch more than it's new counterparts, then
go ahead and get it repaired. The repairs will cost much less than a
new one.

[Mooron]

Post by Flycaster
I just spoke with Swisstime Care repair about why I'm being charged so
much for a relatively inexpensive movement (inexpensive as you folks
have repeately wrote) replacement. So, here's their tech's explanation.
The movement is definitely broken and needs to be replaced. He said
that the movement is made by Ebel, not someone else. The movement is a
jeweled 83 caliber movement. Is this movement in the same class as your
$30-50 Seiko-type movement? Does it really cost more? Are their any
benefits of this movement over the less expensive movements?
--
To email, erase "forgetit"

I would be surprised it the movement was actually made by Ebel.
It's possibly a customized version of something. If it is a
"high accuracy" quartz movement ( temperature compensated )
it would be worth a premium. Though $395 is pushing it a lot.
I'd like to have a good watchmaker open it and see exactly
what is inside.

I can't find an Ebel 83. I see an Ebel 81 listed at $210
(http://www.ofrei.com/page364.html). I have no idea
what an Ebel caliber 81 is though.

Mooron

[djohnson]

Post by Flycaster
I just spoke with Swisstime Care repair about why I'm being charged so
much for a relatively inexpensive movement (inexpensive as you folks
have repeately wrote) replacement. So, here's their tech's explanation.
The movement is definitely broken and needs to be replaced. He said
that the movement is made by Ebel, not someone else. The movement is a
jeweled 83 caliber movement. Is this movement in the same class as your
$30-50 Seiko-type movement? Does it really cost more? Are their any
benefits of this movement over the less expensive movements?
--
To email, erase "forgetit"

The theoretical benefits to jewels in a quartz watch would be longer
battery life and longevety of the movement. Jeweled quartz aren't the
most common, but not all that exclusive, either--I had a Timex with a
proper quartz movement (rather than their early balance-wheel hybrid)
that was jeweled.

Anecdotal evedence would say that my 1979 Armitron Garfield watch has a
better movement, based on adequate timekeeping and durability....

[Jack Denver]

It's almost unheard of for quartz movements to be actually made by the
"manufacturer" whose name is on the dial - probably 99% of them are
relabeled OEM parts from ETA or a couple of other quartz movement makers.
Sometimes they assign their own caliber #'s to these movements and "modify"
them by printing their name on the movement, which entitles them to call
them "factory" parts and not generic "OEM". So the tech, in the typical
Swiss way, is not exactly lying but he's not telling you the truth either.


A watchmaker could easily tell what the equivalent OEM caliber is, that
will be a "drop in" replacement. Your watch will run identically because the
movement WILL be identical except for the lack of the Ebel name printed on
the movement plate. BTW, to me this is one more level of shamelessness - in
many cases they can't even be bothered to fake ownership of a caliber by
actually engraving their name in there - they literally print their name on
in ink. Even the Chinese fakers know how to laser engrave a name into a
movement. The only way they could be more perfunctory would be to use a
sticker or a rubber stamp.

Ditto the bit about the jewels - it's the truth but not the whole truth.
Because a quartz watch train is not under load from a mainspring, jewels do
not add much to their longevity or accuracy. Nevertheless some quartz
movements have anywhere from a few jewels to a fully jeweled train but you
are still not talking about a lot of cost - again typically under $50 even
for a "jeweled" quartz movement. Notice he did not tell you how many
jewels - I'm guessing 6 or 7, not that it would cost much more to put 15 or
17 in there either (if you could find enough holes to jewel).

In other words the man is still blowing smoke. Please do as we suggested
earlier and take the watch to a local watchmaker. Not a jewelry shop that
will send it out and double the cost, but an actual independent watchmaker's
location.

I just spoke with Swisstime Care repair about why I'm being charged so much
for a relatively inexpensive movement (inexpensive as you folks have
repeately wrote) replacement. So, here's their tech's explanation. The
movement is definitely broken and needs to be replaced. He said that the
movement is made by Ebel, not someone else. The movement is a jeweled 83
caliber movement. Is this movement in the same class as your $30-50
Seiko-type movement? Does it really cost more? Are their any benefits of
this movement over the less expensive movements?
--
To email, erase "forgetit"

[germ]

[...] So the tech, in the typical
Swiss way, is not exactly lying but he's not telling you the truth either.

Cheap shot?

[Jack Denver]

I wouldn't say so. I'd say it's truthful as generalizations about national
character go. The Swiss were once a poor, mountainous landlocked country
with few natural resources besides cow pastures, surrounded by great powers
that could potentially stomp them and so they had to learn to live by their
wits. Not telling the whole truth is part of that - we admire the same trait
in a good poker player for example. Or Bill Clinton. You can tell less than
the whole truth while maintaining your integrity, if the norms of your
culture say that it is permissible, even advisable not to give away more
information than necessary. The Swiss regard American's total lack of
discretion, where all kinds of personal and financial details are revealed
and even printed in the newspaper, with shock and horror.

Post by germ

[...] So the tech, in the typical
Swiss way, is not exactly lying but he's not telling you the truth either.

Cheap shot?
--
germ Remove "nospam" to reply

[Frank Adam]

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 23:52:25 -0500, "Jack Denver"

Post by Jack Denver
information than necessary. The Swiss regard American's total lack of
discretion, where all kinds of personal and financial details are revealed
and even printed in the newspaper, with shock and horror.

Is that right ? What is your yearly income then ? ;-p

[Jack Denver]

If I were a public official in the US, I'd have to tell you. Here for
example is the financial disclosure form for the recently nominated (for the
US Supreme Court) Judge Alito:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/judges/2005/alitos.pdf

which details every penny he made last year and every asset he owns. Every
ranking Federal (and many State) official has to file similar reports. I'd
be very surprised if Swiss judges had their incomes posted on the internet
in this way. I suspect they consider that to be none of your business.

Post by Frank Adam
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 23:52:25 -0500, "Jack Denver"

Post by Jack Denver
information than necessary. The Swiss regard American's total lack of
discretion, where all kinds of personal and financial details are revealed
and even printed in the newspaper, with shock and horror.

Is that right ? What is your yearly income then ? ;-p
--
Regards, Frank

[Frank Adam]

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:18:08 -0500, "Jack Denver"
<***@netscape.net> wrote:

And it is really none of our business and makes little difference.
As long as all our public servants' perks and shady deals and
decisions(both insider and other) are not tabled to and/or hidden from
the public, the matter of knowing the big boys' wage is merely a bit
of token truth to those who feel the need to be fooled even more by
the government.
The big boys are in fact small fish in these stakes, since they will
in general not jeapordise their position and 6-7 figure incomes, by
working on deals under the desk.

Post by Jack Denver
If I were a public official in the US, I'd have to tell you. Here for
example is the financial disclosure form for the recently nominated (for the
http://www.judicialwatch.org/judges/2005/alitos.pdf
which details every penny he made last year and every asset he owns. Every
ranking Federal (and many State) official has to file similar reports. I'd
be very surprised if Swiss judges had their incomes posted on the internet
in this way. I suspect they consider that to be none of your business.

Post by Frank Adam
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 23:52:25 -0500, "Jack Denver"

Post by Jack Denver
information than necessary. The Swiss regard American's total lack of
discretion, where all kinds of personal and financial details are revealed
and even printed in the newspaper, with shock and horror.

Is that right ? What is your yearly income then ? ;-p
--
Regards, Frank

[germ]

Post by Jack Denver
If I were a public official in the US, I'd have to tell you. Here for
example is the financial disclosure form for the recently nominated (for the
http://www.judicialwatch.org/judges/2005/alitos.pdf
which details every penny he made last year and every asset he owns. Every
ranking Federal (and many State) official has to file similar reports. I'd
be very surprised if Swiss judges had their incomes posted on the internet
in this way. I suspect they consider that to be none of your business.

Wrong. It's not published on the Internet, but the salary of goverment
employees is public. Perhaps not down to the last penny, but you have a
pretty precise idea of what that is.

As of whether this is any of my business, I would tend to think that it
isn't.

[germ]

Post by Jack Denver
I wouldn't say so. I'd say it's truthful as generalizations about national
character go. The Swiss were once a poor, mountainous landlocked country
with few natural resources besides cow pastures, surrounded by great powers
that could potentially stomp them and so they had to learn to live by their
wits. Not telling the whole truth is part of that -

As a Swiss who moved to the U.S. over 10 years ago, I know a thing or
two about my home country. "Not telling the whole truth" is not part of
that. At least when I grew up, honesty was a big part of being Swiss
(and it probably still is). Without starting a flame war, much more so
than in the U.S.

Post by Jack Denver
we admire the same trait
in a good poker player for example. Or Bill Clinton. You can tell less than
the whole truth while maintaining your integrity, if the norms of your
culture say that it is permissible, even advisable not to give away more
information than necessary. The Swiss regard American's total lack of
discretion, where all kinds of personal and financial details are revealed
and even printed in the newspaper, with shock and horror.

But privacy is a good thing, IMO. Not revealing "all kinds of personal
and financial details" has nothing to do with not telling the truth.

[dAz]

Post by Flycaster
I just spoke with Swisstime Care repair about why I'm being charged so
much for a relatively inexpensive movement (inexpensive as you folks
have repeately wrote) replacement. So, here's their tech's explanation.
The movement is definitely broken and needs to be replaced. He said
that the movement is made by Ebel, not someone else. The movement is a
jeweled 83 caliber movement. Is this movement in the same class as your
$30-50 Seiko-type movement? Does it really cost more? Are their any
benefits of this movement over the less expensive movements?

hmmm ok, Ebel is one of those companys that don't "make" their own
movements, they never have, they use customised versions of other
manufactures base movements, movements from AS, ETA, Piaget and so on,
Mido for example only used AS movements, but AS would reserve certain
calibres or models only for Mido, so a AS1750 could be bought by anyone,
but an AS1752 which looks similar and some parts are interchangable,
otherwise you would have to go thru Mido to get certain parts for it.

these base movements come in different grades, from a basic plain one,
to better finish on the plates, blued screws, better grade balance
wheels and escapements, you can see this in a Valjoux 7750 used by a lot
of watch companies, at the cheap end you have a very plain finish, some
plastic parts, at the other end, nicely finished plates, blued screws,
and chronometer grade escapement, balance wheel and hairspring.

before the 80s a lot of makers made their own quartz movements, Omega,
longines, bulova, Rolex, etc, etc,

now except for a couple of companies, most now use ETA quartz, Rolex
still have theirs but as far as I know don't make it anymore but they do
have plenty of spare parts and movements for them.

back to Ebel, seeing they have always used customised versions of other
peoples movements, I would say yours is a ETA quartz, with a nice "Ebel"
stamped on the top plate/circuit cover, it may or should have the better
grade circuit board fitted, quartz circuits on the ETAs come in cheap,
set at the factory and cannot be adjusted after type, or the better
grade circuit with an Epprom fitted so the movement can be adjusted
closer for time on a special machine.

the difference in cost is $15 or so for the base movement to around $50
for the better grade one.

have a look at the brands under the Swatch Group
http://www.swatchgroup.com/brands/brands.php

there are some expensive brands in that list, but any of the quartz
models made by any of the companies listed use ETA quartz based
movements, just customised to suit the company, Omega has them bronze
plated to match the "Omega" look, Longines uses a slivered finish and so on.

yes you are paying for the name and the look, but you do get a well made
and nicely finished watch in as far as the case, band, dial, hands and
style, the Ebel would be no different, even TAGs have well made cases
and bands

but quartz is quartz, before you spend $400 for a new movement take it
to a good watchmaker and have them check to see what is actually inside
your watch, ok

dAz


ps; a few years back a friend was quoted $300 for a new movement in his
TAG Ti sports watch, the watch retailed then for $1500, I open it up and
find it has a $20 quartz movement!! shock horror!

anyway needless to say he didn't take it back to TAG for the repair :)

[Jack Denver]

I think we should take over/under bets on what the OEM replacement movement
for Flycaster's Ebel will cost. Movement only, no labor, based on actual
price at Frei or some other major materials house. I'm betting $45. Am I
high or low and by how much?

Post by dAz

Post by Flycaster
I just spoke with Swisstime Care repair about why I'm being charged so
much for a relatively inexpensive movement (inexpensive as you folks have
repeately wrote) replacement. So, here's their tech's explanation. The
movement is definitely broken and needs to be replaced. He said that the
movement is made by Ebel, not someone else. The movement is a jeweled 83
caliber movement. Is this movement in the same class as your $30-50
Seiko-type movement? Does it really cost more? Are their any benefits
of this movement over the less expensive movements?

hmmm ok, Ebel is one of those companys that don't "make" their own
movements, they never have, they use customised versions of other
manufactures base movements, movements from AS, ETA, Piaget and so on,
Mido for example only used AS movements, but AS would reserve certain
calibres or models only for Mido, so a AS1750 could be bought by anyone,
but an AS1752 which looks similar and some parts are interchangable,
otherwise you would have to go thru Mido to get certain parts for it.
these base movements come in different grades, from a basic plain one, to
better finish on the plates, blued screws, better grade balance wheels and
escapements, you can see this in a Valjoux 7750 used by a lot of watch
companies, at the cheap end you have a very plain finish, some plastic
parts, at the other end, nicely finished plates, blued screws, and
chronometer grade escapement, balance wheel and hairspring.
before the 80s a lot of makers made their own quartz movements, Omega,
longines, bulova, Rolex, etc, etc,
now except for a couple of companies, most now use ETA quartz, Rolex still
have theirs but as far as I know don't make it anymore but they do have
plenty of spare parts and movements for them.
back to Ebel, seeing they have always used customised versions of other
peoples movements, I would say yours is a ETA quartz, with a nice "Ebel"
stamped on the top plate/circuit cover, it may or should have the better
grade circuit board fitted, quartz circuits on the ETAs come in cheap, set
at the factory and cannot be adjusted after type, or the better grade
circuit with an Epprom fitted so the movement can be adjusted closer for
time on a special machine.
the difference in cost is $15 or so for the base movement to around $50
for the better grade one.
have a look at the brands under the Swatch Group
http://www.swatchgroup.com/brands/brands.php
there are some expensive brands in that list, but any of the quartz models
made by any of the companies listed use ETA quartz based movements, just
customised to suit the company, Omega has them bronze plated to match the
"Omega" look, Longines uses a slivered finish and so on.
yes you are paying for the name and the look, but you do get a well made
and nicely finished watch in as far as the case, band, dial, hands and
style, the Ebel would be no different, even TAGs have well made cases and
bands
but quartz is quartz, before you spend $400 for a new movement take it to
a good watchmaker and have them check to see what is actually inside your
watch, ok
dAz
ps; a few years back a friend was quoted $300 for a new movement in his
TAG Ti sports watch, the watch retailed then for $1500, I open it up and
find it has a $20 quartz movement!! shock horror!
anyway needless to say he didn't take it back to TAG for the repair :)

[Frank Adam]

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 10:24:53 -0500, Flycaster

Post by Flycaster
I just spoke with Swisstime Care repair about why I'm being charged so
much for a relatively inexpensive movement (inexpensive as you folks
have repeately wrote) replacement. So, here's their tech's explanation.
The movement is definitely broken and needs to be replaced. He said
that the movement is made by Ebel, not someone else. The movement is a
jeweled 83 caliber movement. Is this movement in the same class as your
$30-50 Seiko-type movement? Does it really cost more? Are their any
benefits of this movement over the less expensive movements?

One misconception is that there is a quality factor in the mechanical
part of quartz movements. When it comes to quartz, the quality of the
actual movement is of not much concern(within reason of course).
The circuit is what makes the movement better or worse.
For instance:
On the timing machine(using a 10 second gate), my Seiko
Synchrotimer(all metal) gives a constant +0.72 seconds per day. My
wife's Seiko(hybrid plastic/metal 1N00) does 0.74 and her Lorus all
plastic sealed "junk" movement(V811) gives +1.03 seconds. My Tissot
powered by a widely used ETA955.xxx(all metal) is doing +3.14, two
other 955s i've tested give similar results. All of these(apart form
the Sycnhrotimer) are factory set and can not be adjusted and they are
all presumably within what the manufacturer deems as acceptable.
Those results kinda show up ETA and flatter Seiko, but these are just
my results based on what i've had handy..

The tweaked versions of ETAs will have at least a trimmer to fine tune
them and some will have a more accurate circuit too.
None the less it does not make them worth 300 dollars. The highest
priced movement i have on my supplier lists is the ETA 961.001 used in
Omegas, Longines, P.Balmains etc.. It's cost is A$79.00. The rest of
the ETAs cost around 20 bucks.

This is one of the primary reasons why i don't feel any remourse when
these companies are faked by illegal trade. They bring it on
themselves and they deserve all they get.

When you take that watch to a watchmaker, chances are he will fit a
comparable ETA, but a cheaper grade. If you insist on the same grade
and the repeairer will have to get the same "Ebel" movement, he'll
have to go to Ebel and at the usual costs, he'll have to pay between
half to 2/3 of the retail price. Add his service costs and you'll be
back to where Ebel had you. If the potential of having a watch with a
3 second a day instead of one second a day does not worry you, then
forget Ebel's service.

Not sure if all this helped, but i haven't had a rant for so long.. :)

ps: I really would like to see that 130 dollar crown though. Must be
straight off the Queen's head. :-)

[Jack Denver]

If a quartz watch is doing 3 secs/day, something is wrong with it. The
industry standard for new uncompensated quartz movements is around .5
sec/day - about where your Seikos are, allowing for age. Even $10 type
quartz watches can do 1/2 sec/day. I don't think I've ever had a quartz
watch that did as bad as 3 secs/day if it was running at all. If Flycaster
got a new, generic ETA it would most likely do bettery than 1 sec/day, even
if it was not the kind with a trimmer. Even the ones without a trimmer are
trimmed at the factory by some method - burning an eprom or cutting lines or
something. It doesn't suprise me though that the Seiko are better - I'd
trust their Japanese quality control on quartz crystals more than I'd trust
the Swiss, who are not exactly famous for their electronics. I'd bet you the
Swiss are getting their crystals from China by now anyway (remember that up
to 50% in value of a "Swiss" movement may be imported). The biggest
determinant of the accuracy of a quartz watch is the quality of the crystal
and cutting them to a precise frequency is an art.

Post by Frank Adam
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 10:24:53 -0500, Flycaster

Post by Flycaster
I just spoke with Swisstime Care repair about why I'm being charged so
much for a relatively inexpensive movement (inexpensive as you folks
have repeately wrote) replacement. So, here's their tech's explanation.
The movement is definitely broken and needs to be replaced. He said
that the movement is made by Ebel, not someone else. The movement is a
jeweled 83 caliber movement. Is this movement in the same class as your
$30-50 Seiko-type movement? Does it really cost more? Are their any
benefits of this movement over the less expensive movements?

One misconception is that there is a quality factor in the mechanical
part of quartz movements. When it comes to quartz, the quality of the
actual movement is of not much concern(within reason of course).
The circuit is what makes the movement better or worse.
On the timing machine(using a 10 second gate), my Seiko
Synchrotimer(all metal) gives a constant +0.72 seconds per day. My
wife's Seiko(hybrid plastic/metal 1N00) does 0.74 and her Lorus all
plastic sealed "junk" movement(V811) gives +1.03 seconds. My Tissot
powered by a widely used ETA955.xxx(all metal) is doing +3.14, two
other 955s i've tested give similar results. All of these(apart form
the Sycnhrotimer) are factory set and can not be adjusted and they are
all presumably within what the manufacturer deems as acceptable.
Those results kinda show up ETA and flatter Seiko, but these are just
my results based on what i've had handy..
The tweaked versions of ETAs will have at least a trimmer to fine tune
them and some will have a more accurate circuit too.
None the less it does not make them worth 300 dollars. The highest
priced movement i have on my supplier lists is the ETA 961.001 used in
Omegas, Longines, P.Balmains etc.. It's cost is A$79.00. The rest of
the ETAs cost around 20 bucks.
This is one of the primary reasons why i don't feel any remourse when
these companies are faked by illegal trade. They bring it on
themselves and they deserve all they get.
When you take that watch to a watchmaker, chances are he will fit a
comparable ETA, but a cheaper grade. If you insist on the same grade
and the repeairer will have to get the same "Ebel" movement, he'll
have to go to Ebel and at the usual costs, he'll have to pay between
half to 2/3 of the retail price. Add his service costs and you'll be
back to where Ebel had you. If the potential of having a watch with a
3 second a day instead of one second a day does not worry you, then
forget Ebel's service.
Not sure if all this helped, but i haven't had a rant for so long.. :)
ps: I really would like to see that 130 dollar crown though. Must be
straight off the Queen's head. :-)
--
Regards, Frank

[Frank Adam]

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:08:58 -0500, "Jack Denver"
<***@netscape.net> wrote:

Well, insdustry standard is one thing, three separate movements(2 new)
955s having shown virtually the same +3.x result over a 10 second gate
is reality.
What movements *can* do and *do* do is a different story.
If i remember to, i'll keep a record of the watches as they fall
through the bench for a few days and let you know what i find..

Post by Jack Denver
If a quartz watch is doing 3 secs/day, something is wrong with it. The
industry standard for new uncompensated quartz movements is around .5
sec/day - about where your Seikos are, allowing for age. Even $10 type
quartz watches can do 1/2 sec/day. I don't think I've ever had a quartz
watch that did as bad as 3 secs/day if it was running at all. If Flycaster
got a new, generic ETA it would most likely do bettery than 1 sec/day, even
if it was not the kind with a trimmer. Even the ones without a trimmer are
trimmed at the factory by some method - burning an eprom or cutting lines or
something. It doesn't suprise me though that the Seiko are better - I'd
trust their Japanese quality control on quartz crystals more than I'd trust
the Swiss, who are not exactly famous for their electronics. I'd bet you the
Swiss are getting their crystals from China by now anyway (remember that up
to 50% in value of a "Swiss" movement may be imported). The biggest
determinant of the accuracy of a quartz watch is the quality of the crystal
and cutting them to a precise frequency is an art.

Post by Frank Adam
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 10:24:53 -0500, Flycaster

Post by Flycaster
I just spoke with Swisstime Care repair about why I'm being charged so
much for a relatively inexpensive movement (inexpensive as you folks
have repeately wrote) replacement. So, here's their tech's explanation.
The movement is definitely broken and needs to be replaced. He said
that the movement is made by Ebel, not someone else. The movement is a
jeweled 83 caliber movement. Is this movement in the same class as your
$30-50 Seiko-type movement? Does it really cost more? Are their any
benefits of this movement over the less expensive movements?

One misconception is that there is a quality factor in the mechanical
part of quartz movements. When it comes to quartz, the quality of the
actual movement is of not much concern(within reason of course).
The circuit is what makes the movement better or worse.
On the timing machine(using a 10 second gate), my Seiko
Synchrotimer(all metal) gives a constant +0.72 seconds per day. My
wife's Seiko(hybrid plastic/metal 1N00) does 0.74 and her Lorus all
plastic sealed "junk" movement(V811) gives +1.03 seconds. My Tissot
powered by a widely used ETA955.xxx(all metal) is doing +3.14, two
other 955s i've tested give similar results. All of these(apart form
the Sycnhrotimer) are factory set and can not be adjusted and they are
all presumably within what the manufacturer deems as acceptable.
Those results kinda show up ETA and flatter Seiko, but these are just
my results based on what i've had handy..
The tweaked versions of ETAs will have at least a trimmer to fine tune
them and some will have a more accurate circuit too.
None the less it does not make them worth 300 dollars. The highest
priced movement i have on my supplier lists is the ETA 961.001 used in
Omegas, Longines, P.Balmains etc.. It's cost is A$79.00. The rest of
the ETAs cost around 20 bucks.
This is one of the primary reasons why i don't feel any remourse when
these companies are faked by illegal trade. They bring it on
themselves and they deserve all they get.
When you take that watch to a watchmaker, chances are he will fit a
comparable ETA, but a cheaper grade. If you insist on the same grade
and the repeairer will have to get the same "Ebel" movement, he'll
have to go to Ebel and at the usual costs, he'll have to pay between
half to 2/3 of the retail price. Add his service costs and you'll be
back to where Ebel had you. If the potential of having a watch with a
3 second a day instead of one second a day does not worry you, then
forget Ebel's service.
Not sure if all this helped, but i haven't had a rant for so long.. :)
ps: I really would like to see that 130 dollar crown though. Must be
straight off the Queen's head. :-)
--
Regards, Frank

[Dave Johnson]

Post by Frank Adam
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:08:58 -0500, "Jack Denver"
Well, insdustry standard is one thing, three separate movements(2 new)
955s having shown virtually the same +3.x result over a 10 second gate
is reality.
What movements *can* do and *do* do is a different story.
If i remember to, i'll keep a record of the watches as they fall
through the bench for a few days and let you know what i find..

As a former calibration technician, if I measured several quartz watches
that were +3 seconds per day off, I'd be curious about the true accuracy of
the standard, what it is really measuring and if 10 seconds is enough to
get an accurate count.

[Frank Adam]

Post by Dave Johnson

Post by Frank Adam
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:08:58 -0500, "Jack Denver"
Well, insdustry standard is one thing, three separate movements(2 new)
955s having shown virtually the same +3.x result over a 10 second gate
is reality.
What movements *can* do and *do* do is a different story.
If i remember to, i'll keep a record of the watches as they fall
through the bench for a few days and let you know what i find..

As a former calibration technician, if I measured several quartz watches
that were +3 seconds per day off, I'd be curious about the true accuracy of
the standard, what it is really measuring and if 10 seconds is enough to
get an accurate count.

I would think a 10 second one should be ok, especially for the 1
second steppers.
The timer does average between gate triggers too, so leaving the watch
on the mike for a longer time will always keep adjusting and averaging
the results as a whole for the duration of the test.
Real time readings(as compared to an atomic clock or something over a
given time) may differ and i didn't bother with that. As we all know,
temperature changes and a given usage of a watch can alter time
keeping and this is where other factors about the circuit will kick
in, which is not generally tested on th etiming machine. Such as
temperature compensation.
I think the standard may be looking at all possible scenarios and
applies an average. So, a watch on the sun may gain, in the snow it
may lose, at room temperature it may be just ok, but overall it will
show what the standard requires.
Just for the hell of it, i've just tested my Tissot again. It's a
coolish(16C) in the workshop.
It gave me +3.54 +-0.1 after a minute. Then i warmed the watch to body
temperature(don't ask <g>). The reading was down to +3.00 and watching
it over the next couple of minutes it was picking back up to that
previous +3.5 as the case was cooling off. And as i send this, it's up
to a solid +3.60.

Should keep in mind that this timing is done on the actual impulse,
not the circuit alone. One interesting way of measuring circuit
quality is to put the timer into a one second gate mode and let it
evaluate each tick. The discrepency between each pulse can be as much
as an indicated +-15 seconds/day. Obviously these are false readings,
but it does show up how inaccurate the actual oscillator is and how
much work the averaging circuit must do to keep a watch accurate-ish.
The Swiss movements i have here, seem to have much less fluctuation
than the Seiko and other Jap stuff. What does that mean ? No idea. :)

[Mooron]

Post by Frank Adam
On the timing machine(using a 10 second gate), my Seiko
Synchrotimer(all metal) gives a constant +0.72 seconds per day. My
wife's Seiko(hybrid plastic/metal 1N00) does 0.74 and her Lorus all
plastic sealed "junk" movement(V811) gives +1.03 seconds. My Tissot
powered by a widely used ETA955.xxx(all metal) is doing +3.14, two
other 955s i've tested give similar results. All of these(apart form
the Sycnhrotimer) are factory set and can not be adjusted and they are
all presumably within what the manufacturer deems as acceptable.
Those results kinda show up ETA and flatter Seiko, but these are just
my results based on what i've had handy..

Those numbers are surprising. My worst Timex is off by about
1 second/day and that's an old watch. I have a bunch of cheap
watches. I'll check them to see what they do.

Post by Frank Adam
The tweaked versions of ETAs will have at least a trimmer to fine tune
them and some will have a more accurate circuit too.
None the less it does not make them worth 300 dollars. The highest
priced movement i have on my supplier lists is the ETA 961.001 used in
Omegas, Longines, P.Balmains etc.. It's cost is A$79.00. The rest of
the ETAs cost around 20 bucks.

Something is wrong. I'm gettting this:

ETA 961.001/3 6¾ x 8 3.50 60/110 Discontinued use 802.004
ETA 802.004 6¾ x 8 2.95 70/120 4.50

$4.50 US is too low and there is no sweep second hand. It doesn't
look right.

Post by Frank Adam
Regards, Frank

Mooron

[Frank Adam]

Post by Mooron

Post by Frank Adam
priced movement i have on my supplier lists is the ETA 961.001 used in
Omegas, Longines, P.Balmains etc.. It's cost is A$79.00. The rest of
the ETAs cost around 20 bucks.

ETA 961.001/3 6¾ x 8 3.50 60/110 Discontinued use 802.004
ETA 802.004 6¾ x 8 2.95 70/120 4.50
$4.50 US is too low and there is no sweep second hand. It doesn't
look right.

Whoops, sorry. Bit of brain fart on my part, it is the 976.001 which
is A$79.00. The 961 is not even listed now and the 802.004 is A$11.45.

[Mooron]

Post by Frank Adam

Post by Mooron

Post by Frank Adam
priced movement i have on my supplier lists is the ETA 961.001 used in
Omegas, Longines, P.Balmains etc.. It's cost is A$79.00. The rest of
the ETAs cost around 20 bucks.

ETA 961.001/3 6¾ x 8 3.50 60/110 Discontinued use 802.004
ETA 802.004 6¾ x 8 2.95 70/120 4.50
$4.50 US is too low and there is no sweep second hand. It doesn't
look right.

Whoops, sorry. Bit of brain fart on my part, it is the 976.001 which
is A$79.00. The 961 is not even listed now and the 802.004 is A$11.45.
--
Regards, Frank

That's better. It must be cheaper here.

ETA 976.001 5½ x 6¾ 1.95 55/100 38.50

38.50 U.S. dollars = 52.3097826 Australian dollars

Mooron

[ticktock]

Post by Flycaster
The stem of my 6 year old Ebel Discovery (model 183913) has come out
several times when attempting to set the time and/or date. As it was
out of warranty, it was sent off to Swisstime Care per Ebel's

i>nstructions. Aside from basic service ($86), case back/crystal

Post by Flycaster
gaskets-water resistance test (all at no charge), tube gasket ($5),
crown repair ($138), they said that a "movement exchange" (movement
#621000066) was in order, at a cost of $395. So, for $624, I'll have a
"new" watch.

We've all had a great debate about the quality and price of the Ebel
movement, and Swisstime Care's representative comments about the
movement being all Ebel (cough! yeah right, I doubt that 'very' much
--- I dont recognise the 80-something movement number he quoted you but
ETA were the normal base for their movements),... but for me it is the
rest of your original introductory question, and their representative's
further comments that are the more interesting.

Flycaster, (IMHO) the 'flaw' in Swisscare's argument rests upon your
description of the rest of the work they claim needs to be done. If I
am reading your original post correctly they are in fact telling you
that you need a new movement (verified by your further post where they
claim to have 'confirmed' that the existing one is indeed broken) yet
they have quoted you $86 for your basic service, ... basic service of
what, - a broken movement that they are going to 'bin' when they fit
your replacement? Or is this them charging you for a service on the
new movement that they are wanting to charge you $395 for?
Surely not!
Further, if the movement is being swapped out for a new one then why
would you need a 'crown repair' costing a further $138 dollars. If it
is a new movement then that should come with a stem at least ... so are
they really claiming that the price for a new ebel button ('crown') is
a whopping $138 ?
Now that would be a definitive Rip-Off.
Here in the UK we have a Materials House (Watch Component Wholesaler)
who has very expensive charges for genuine OEM 'buttons', they are
asking circa 10-15 UKP (trade) for a Longines/Omega/Rolex replacement.
By the time I add on a 'healthy' 85% mark-up that would be a maximum of
27.75 or, (at 1.72:1 exchange rate USD:UKP,) $47.73; ... and as I say
that is for me buying such from one of our most expensive Wholesalers.
Just any service centre can justify such OTT pricing estimations is
beyond me.

If their movement exchange were the only charge they were going to make
I could follow the reasoning... and if their 395 included the movement,
including it's new button/crown, new seals, etc; then I could follow
the reasoning quite easily ... but that isn't what you have written.
With all their 'additions' it simply doesn't add up.

I really do urge you again to get your watch back from them and seek an
independant assessment.


Or is it that I have actually misread your posts... in which case I
apologise for being dense.


Ian

[Jack Denver]

No I don't think you read it wrong at all. You have it exactly right. My
guess is that the $86 "basic service" means "what we charge just for looking
at your watch. Any actual work is extra." And yes, $138 for a crown is
outrageous - as Frank said, unless it's the kind that goes on the Queen's
head. I don't know if this idiom exists on the other side of the pond(s),
but around here this kind of detailed double charging ripoff is called
"being sold a bill of goods". Overall they are asking, I'd say, at least
triple or more what a "fair" price would be for what they propose to do.

BTW, it's not even clear that the watch needs a movement. The defect appears
to be that the stem is loose, not that the watch is not running. A real
watchmaker and not a ripoff house should be able to reinstall the stem
without having to replace the whole movement. It would not surprise me if an
honest watchmaker could get his watch back in shape for well under $100.

Post by ticktock

Post by Flycaster
The stem of my 6 year old Ebel Discovery (model 183913) has come out
several times when attempting to set the time and/or date. As it was
out of warranty, it was sent off to Swisstime Care per Ebel's

i>nstructions. Aside from basic service ($86), case back/crystal

Post by Flycaster
gaskets-water resistance test (all at no charge), tube gasket ($5),
crown repair ($138), they said that a "movement exchange" (movement
#621000066) was in order, at a cost of $395. So, for $624, I'll have a
"new" watch.

We've all had a great debate about the quality and price of the Ebel
movement, and Swisstime Care's representative comments about the
movement being all Ebel (cough! yeah right, I doubt that 'very' much
--- I dont recognise the 80-something movement number he quoted you but
ETA were the normal base for their movements),... but for me it is the
rest of your original introductory question, and their representative's
further comments that are the more interesting.
Flycaster, (IMHO) the 'flaw' in Swisscare's argument rests upon your
description of the rest of the work they claim needs to be done. If I
am reading your original post correctly they are in fact telling you
that you need a new movement (verified by your further post where they
claim to have 'confirmed' that the existing one is indeed broken) yet
they have quoted you $86 for your basic service, ... basic service of
what, - a broken movement that they are going to 'bin' when they fit
your replacement? Or is this them charging you for a service on the
new movement that they are wanting to charge you $395 for?
Surely not!
Further, if the movement is being swapped out for a new one then why
would you need a 'crown repair' costing a further $138 dollars. If it
is a new movement then that should come with a stem at least ... so are
they really claiming that the price for a new ebel button ('crown') is
a whopping $138 ?
Now that would be a definitive Rip-Off.
Here in the UK we have a Materials House (Watch Component Wholesaler)
who has very expensive charges for genuine OEM 'buttons', they are
asking circa 10-15 UKP (trade) for a Longines/Omega/Rolex replacement.
By the time I add on a 'healthy' 85% mark-up that would be a maximum of
27.75 or, (at 1.72:1 exchange rate USD:UKP,) $47.73; ... and as I say
that is for me buying such from one of our most expensive Wholesalers.
Just any service centre can justify such OTT pricing estimations is
beyond me.
If their movement exchange were the only charge they were going to make
I could follow the reasoning... and if their 395 included the movement,
including it's new button/crown, new seals, etc; then I could follow
the reasoning quite easily ... but that isn't what you have written.
With all their 'additions' it simply doesn't add up.
I really do urge you again to get your watch back from them and seek an
independant assessment.
Or is it that I have actually misread your posts... in which case I
apologise for being dense.
Ian

[Flycaster]

The $86 Is for battery replacement and gaskets, and for checking the
watch out. Of course, one would expect that if work is done on the
watch, other than the battery, then some of this cost should be written
off on the repair, eh?

My movement was working, but was "dry/dirty and damaged." The crown was
"damaged." It is a gold crown, BTW.

Yes, the watch was sent in because the stem came out several times when
setting the watch.

In speaking with the tech, he said that movement needed to be replaced
as the something, or other, was broken and the stem could be refitted
into a holding position (my words).

The tech told me that the Ebel caliber 83 was also used by Cartier.

I'd certainly like to have an independent watchmaker look at the watch,
but I'm having trouble finding one! Most of the watch repair guys are
associated with jewelery stores.

Post by Jack Denver
No I don't think you read it wrong at all. You have it exactly right. My
guess is that the $86 "basic service" means "what we charge just for looking
at your watch. Any actual work is extra." And yes, $138 for a crown is
outrageous - as Frank said, unless it's the kind that goes on the Queen's
head. I don't know if this idiom exists on the other side of the pond(s),
but around here this kind of detailed double charging ripoff is called
"being sold a bill of goods". Overall they are asking, I'd say, at least
triple or more what a "fair" price would be for what they propose to do.
BTW, it's not even clear that the watch needs a movement. The defect appears
to be that the stem is loose, not that the watch is not running. A real
watchmaker and not a ripoff house should be able to reinstall the stem
without having to replace the whole movement. It would not surprise me if an
honest watchmaker could get his watch back in shape for well under $100.

[Jack Denver]

You may want to consult this directory:

http://www.watch-clock-makers.org/searchreferral.php

or visit the main forum on www.timezone.com and ask someone to privately
message you the name of a recommended watchmaker. This is a very active
forum and there is surely someone in your area. Emphasize that you want
someone who is reasonable. There are highly skilled watchmakers who
fabricate parts from scratch for antiques, work on "complicated" watches,
etc. and they command and deserve high prices for their work. But you need
the watchmaking equivalent of the local corner garage, not the Porsche
mechanic, because replacing a quartz movement is about a 2 on the scale of
horological difficulty.

It's OK for a watchmaker to be associated with a jewelry store if he is
really there on the premises and is an employee (or owner) of the shop. He
should be physically present at his bench when you visit. If he's "out to
lunch" then he doesn't exist. Many jewelry shops will take your watch in and
then send it off to the real watchmaker at a big markup. This is best
avoided if you want to avoid overpaying.


A battery costs under $2 to the watchmaker, a gasket a few pennies, so $86
is pretty stiff for a battery change, wouldn't you say?

The "used by Cartier" line is telling the truth but not the whole truth.
Cartier is known for using cheap generic movements in its very expensive
watches, so yes you are in company with Cartier, but you are not in good
company. The more I hear about your watchmaker the less I like the guy.
Again, he has obviously taken lessons from Bill Clinton on how to mislead
and yet technically tell the truth at the same time. This is a skill I value
in a politician but not in a watchmaker. Maybe your man should consider
running for office.

Generally it is not worthwhile to do much work on a quartz movement as they
are so cheap to replace. But they are only cheap to replace if you are not
dealing with a crook.

The $86 Is for battery replacement and gaskets, and for checking the watch
out. Of course, one would expect that if work is done on the watch, other
than the battery, then some of this cost should be written off on the
repair, eh?
My movement was working, but was "dry/dirty and damaged." The crown was
"damaged." It is a gold crown, BTW.
Yes, the watch was sent in because the stem came out several times when
setting the watch.
In speaking with the tech, he said that movement needed to be replaced as
the something, or other, was broken and the stem could be refitted into a
holding position (my words).
The tech told me that the Ebel caliber 83 was also used by Cartier.
I'd certainly like to have an independent watchmaker look at the watch,
but I'm having trouble finding one! Most of the watch repair guys are
associated with jewelery stores.

[Flycaster]

Jack, thanks for the forum info. I've posted there (with reference to
this thread) and have asked for references for a watchmaker in my area.

Post by Jack Denver
http://www.watch-clock-makers.org/searchreferral.php
or visit the main forum on www.timezone.com and ask someone to privately
message you the name of a recommended watchmaker. This is a very active
forum and there is surely someone in your area. Emphasize that you want
someone who is reasonable. There are highly skilled watchmakers who
fabricate parts from scratch for antiques, work on "complicated" watches,
etc. and they command and deserve high prices for their work. But you need
the watchmaking equivalent of the local corner garage, not the Porsche
mechanic, because replacing a quartz movement is about a 2 on the scale of
horological difficulty.
It's OK for a watchmaker to be associated with a jewelry store if he is
really there on the premises and is an employee (or owner) of the shop. He
should be physically present at his bench when you visit. If he's "out to
lunch" then he doesn't exist. Many jewelry shops will take your watch in and
then send it off to the real watchmaker at a big markup. This is best
avoided if you want to avoid overpaying.
A battery costs under $2 to the watchmaker, a gasket a few pennies, so $86
is pretty stiff for a battery change, wouldn't you say?
The "used by Cartier" line is telling the truth but not the whole truth.
Cartier is known for using cheap generic movements in its very expensive
watches, so yes you are in company with Cartier, but you are not in good
company. The more I hear about your watchmaker the less I like the guy.
Again, he has obviously taken lessons from Bill Clinton on how to mislead
and yet technically tell the truth at the same time. This is a skill I value
in a politician but not in a watchmaker. Maybe your man should consider
running for office.
Generally it is not worthwhile to do much work on a quartz movement as they
are so cheap to replace. But they are only cheap to replace if you are not
dealing with a crook.

The $86 Is for battery replacement and gaskets, and for checking the watch
out. Of course, one would expect that if work is done on the watch, other
than the battery, then some of this cost should be written off on the
repair, eh?
My movement was working, but was "dry/dirty and damaged." The crown was
"damaged." It is a gold crown, BTW.
Yes, the watch was sent in because the stem came out several times when
setting the watch.
In speaking with the tech, he said that movement needed to be replaced as
the something, or other, was broken and the stem could be refitted into a
holding position (my words).
The tech told me that the Ebel caliber 83 was also used by Cartier.
I'd certainly like to have an independent watchmaker look at the watch,
but I'm having trouble finding one! Most of the watch repair guys are
associated with jewelery stores.

[Jack Denver]

Let us know if you get any private responses on TZ. Forum rules prohibit any
public endorsements, so don't expect any.

Post by Flycaster
Jack, thanks for the forum info. I've posted there (with reference to
this thread) and have asked for references for a watchmaker in my area.

Post by Jack Denver
http://www.watch-clock-makers.org/searchreferral.php
or visit the main forum on www.timezone.com and ask someone to privately
message you the name of a recommended watchmaker. This is a very active
forum and there is surely someone in your area. Emphasize that you want
someone who is reasonable. There are highly skilled watchmakers who
fabricate parts from scratch for antiques, work on "complicated" watches,
etc. and they command and deserve high prices for their work. But you
need the watchmaking equivalent of the local corner garage, not the
Porsche mechanic, because replacing a quartz movement is about a 2 on
the scale of horological difficulty.
It's OK for a watchmaker to be associated with a jewelry store if he is
really there on the premises and is an employee (or owner) of the shop.
He should be physically present at his bench when you visit. If he's "out
to lunch" then he doesn't exist. Many jewelry shops will take your watch
in and then send it off to the real watchmaker at a big markup. This is
best avoided if you want to avoid overpaying.
A battery costs under $2 to the watchmaker, a gasket a few pennies, so
$86 is pretty stiff for a battery change, wouldn't you say?
The "used by Cartier" line is telling the truth but not the whole truth.
Cartier is known for using cheap generic movements in its very expensive
watches, so yes you are in company with Cartier, but you are not in good
company. The more I hear about your watchmaker the less I like the guy.
Again, he has obviously taken lessons from Bill Clinton on how to mislead
and yet technically tell the truth at the same time. This is a skill I
value in a politician but not in a watchmaker. Maybe your man should
consider running for office.
Generally it is not worthwhile to do much work on a quartz movement as
they are so cheap to replace. But they are only cheap to replace if you
are not dealing with a crook.

Post by Flycaster
The $86 Is for battery replacement and gaskets, and for checking the
watch out. Of course, one would expect that if work is done on the
watch, other than the battery, then some of this cost should be written
off on the repair, eh?
My movement was working, but was "dry/dirty and damaged." The crown was
"damaged." It is a gold crown, BTW.
Yes, the watch was sent in because the stem came out several times when
setting the watch.
In speaking with the tech, he said that movement needed to be replaced as
the something, or other, was broken and the stem could be refitted into a
holding position (my words).
The tech told me that the Ebel caliber 83 was also used by Cartier.
I'd certainly like to have an independent watchmaker look at the watch,
but I'm having trouble finding one! Most of the watch repair guys are
associated with jewelery stores.

--
To email, erase "forgetit"

[Mooron]

Post by Jack Denver
Generally it is not worthwhile to do much work on a quartz movement as they
are so cheap to replace. But they are only cheap to replace if you are not
dealing with a crook.

I wouldn't go so far as to call the tech a crook. He's probably doing
what he is required to do by Ebel. I've worked in "factory authorized"
repair places and you can't do just anything you want to even
if you know it's the right thing to do. Ebel would probably pull
the service agreement if they found out the movement had been
switched to and ETA.


Mooron

[Jack Denver]

I was referring more to his evasive answers, such as "this is the same
movement as used by Cartier."

If he was just an honest employee stuck in a bad situation, he would not
have misled so enthusiastically but just kept his mouth shut or even
telegraphed a hint to go elsewhere, but this guy was clearly trying to
"sell" the overpriced service.

Post by Mooron

Post by Jack Denver
Generally it is not worthwhile to do much work on a quartz movement as they
are so cheap to replace. But they are only cheap to replace if you are not
dealing with a crook.

I wouldn't go so far as to call the tech a crook. He's probably doing
what he is required to do by Ebel. I've worked in "factory authorized"
repair places and you can't do just anything you want to even
if you know it's the right thing to do. Ebel would probably pull
the service agreement if they found out the movement had been
switched to and ETA.
Mooron

[Frank Adam]

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:41:46 -0500, Flycaster

Post by Flycaster
The $86 Is for battery replacement and gaskets, and for checking the
watch out. Of course, one would expect that if work is done on the
watch, other than the battery, then some of this cost should be written
off on the repair, eh?
My movement was working, but was "dry/dirty and damaged." The crown was
"damaged." It is a gold crown, BTW.

Gold plated.

Post by Flycaster
Yes, the watch was sent in because the stem came out several times when
setting the watch.
In speaking with the tech, he said that movement needed to be replaced
as the something, or other, was broken and the stem could be refitted
into a holding position (my words).

Setting lever ? An easily replacable part costing maybe 20 bucks
retail.
I think what you may be experienceing is the *current* crop of
watchmakers who work for bigger companies and anything past a dunk in
the duo lube must be a new movement.. watchmakers my arse.

Post by Flycaster
The tech told me that the Ebel caliber 83 was also used by Cartier.

Right, so obviously Cartier buys their movements from the Ebel
factory. LOL and the Adina on my bench is using TAG movements. :-)

Post by Flycaster
I'd certainly like to have an independent watchmaker look at the watch,
but I'm having trouble finding one! Most of the watch repair guys are
associated with jewelery stores.

Drop by any time. I'm just 20,000 miles off to your left.. :)
It doesn't really matter if they are associated with a jewellery
store. Get them to give you a quote on the repair and make sure that
you get at least what's called a "firm quote".
Or fire up your local yellow pages and look for a jewellery store that
has what sounds like a family name.. ie: Jill and Joe's watch repairs
or Phil the Jeweller. These smaller guys are likely to be watchmakers
themselves, have one on the premises or use an independent subby like
me. If the latter, you'd have to leave the watch for a few days.
Don't mention Ebel's quote.You haven't been to Ebel at all, right ? :)

Post by Flycaster

Post by Jack Denver
BTW, it's not even clear that the watch needs a movement. The defect appears
to be that the stem is loose, not that the watch is not running. A real
watchmaker and not a ripoff house should be able to reinstall the stem
without having to replace the whole movement. It would not surprise me if an
honest watchmaker could get his watch back in shape for well under $100.

Well, if it is as i (we) suspect an ETA 955 or similar, the price
would be about 75-85 for the service. 20 bucks for the set lever, 30
for a crystal, 12 for the back seal. WPT is 20 bucks and whatever the
crown may cost goes on top of that.
We're still looking at about 160 bucks, leaving room for a 3-400
dollar crown. :-)

[Flycaster]

Man, am I ever learning something about watch repair. Can't wait to get
it done by an independent. BTW, one of the indie watchmakers (who works
for a store) I spoke to, said that he can get a crown, but it wouldn't
be from Ebel and that it was gold plated. So, are you telling me that
the crown that Ebel's repair service would use is also plated and not
18K like the gold trimings on the watch are?

Post by Frank Adam
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:41:46 -0500, Flycaster

Post by Flycaster
The $86 Is for battery replacement and gaskets, and for checking the
watch out. Of course, one would expect that if work is done on the
watch, other than the battery, then some of this cost should be written
off on the repair, eh?
My movement was working, but was "dry/dirty and damaged." The crown was
"damaged." It is a gold crown, BTW.

Gold plated.

Post by Flycaster
Yes, the watch was sent in because the stem came out several times when
setting the watch.
In speaking with the tech, he said that movement needed to be replaced
as the something, or other, was broken and the stem could be refitted
into a holding position (my words).

Setting lever ? An easily replacable part costing maybe 20 bucks
retail.
I think what you may be experienceing is the *current* crop of
watchmakers who work for bigger companies and anything past a dunk in
the duo lube must be a new movement.. watchmakers my arse.

Post by Flycaster
The tech told me that the Ebel caliber 83 was also used by Cartier.

Right, so obviously Cartier buys their movements from the Ebel
factory. LOL and the Adina on my bench is using TAG movements. :-)

Post by Flycaster
I'd certainly like to have an independent watchmaker look at the watch,
but I'm having trouble finding one! Most of the watch repair guys are
associated with jewelery stores.

Drop by any time. I'm just 20,000 miles off to your left.. :)
It doesn't really matter if they are associated with a jewellery
store. Get them to give you a quote on the repair and make sure that
you get at least what's called a "firm quote".
Or fire up your local yellow pages and look for a jewellery store that
has what sounds like a family name.. ie: Jill and Joe's watch repairs
or Phil the Jeweller. These smaller guys are likely to be watchmakers
themselves, have one on the premises or use an independent subby like
me. If the latter, you'd have to leave the watch for a few days.
Don't mention Ebel's quote.You haven't been to Ebel at all, right ? :)

Post by Flycaster

Post by Jack Denver
BTW, it's not even clear that the watch needs a movement. The defect appears
to be that the stem is loose, not that the watch is not running. A real
watchmaker and not a ripoff house should be able to reinstall the stem
without having to replace the whole movement. It would not surprise me if an
honest watchmaker could get his watch back in shape for well under $100.

Well, if it is as i (we) suspect an ETA 955 or similar, the price
would be about 75-85 for the service. 20 bucks for the set lever, 30
for a crystal, 12 for the back seal. WPT is 20 bucks and whatever the
crown may cost goes on top of that.
We're still looking at about 160 bucks, leaving room for a 3-400
dollar crown. :-)

[dAz]

Post by Flycaster
Man, am I ever learning something about watch repair. Can't wait to get
it done by an independent. BTW, one of the indie watchmakers (who works
for a store) I spoke to, said that he can get a crown, but it wouldn't
be from Ebel and that it was gold plated. So, are you telling me that
the crown that Ebel's repair service would use is also plated and not
18K like the gold trimings on the watch are?

no, reason is gold is a fairly soft metal and the tube the stem screws
into could bend or strip the thread easily, even on a solid 18ct gold
Rolex the crowns are stainless steel with a layer of gold rolled on.

your crown would be rolled gold, literally a thin sheet of 9ct gold
rolled or pressed over the outer surface of the crown, this results in a
thicker longer wearing surface than plating.

9ct gold because the colour would be the same and is harder wearing than
18ct.

I would interested to see what an original Ebel crown supplied to an
indpendant watchmaker would cost.

I bought one for an Omega last week, cost me AU$16.50 +gst to go on a
18ct Omega, AFAIK Omega don't make any "solid" gold crowns for their
watches, the same would apply I think for most other makers.

[Frank Adam]

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:50:30 -0500, Flycaster

Post by Flycaster
Man, am I ever learning something about watch repair. Can't wait to get
it done by an independent. BTW, one of the indie watchmakers (who works
for a store) I spoke to, said that he can get a crown, but it wouldn't
be from Ebel and that it was gold plated. So, are you telling me that
the crown that Ebel's repair service would use is also plated and not
18K like the gold trimings on the watch are?

It would be very, very unexpected if it was gold. Especially for a
screwdown crown, since gold is really not durable enough for that and
screwing gold onto a steel tube will kill the thread pretty damn fast.

Rolex(retailing at many times the Ebel) uses rolled gold(RG) crowns.
There have been some older watches where gold and silver crowns were
indeed used and perhaps some high end models still use them, but
again, those retailed at many times what the Ebel costs and thus had
some merit to have such extravagance.

As for the "18K", it usually refers plating. "18ct" is solid gold,
"18K" was/is used as an indication of a quality plating with 18ct
gold. Usually this also means that the plating will be thicker, since
18ct is soft. For that reason it is not very suitable for crowns.

If in doubt and the guy in Indy does the job for you, ask for the
crown to be given back to you.

Btw, it is possible that he may have to change the case tube to
accomodate the new crown. If so, you will not be able to refit an
original Ebel crown without having the original case tube fitted as
well. So keep that in mind and ask the guy if that will happen. Either
way, definitely make sure that he does a pressure test on the finished
case.

Post by Flycaster

Post by Frank Adam
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:41:46 -0500, Flycaster

Post by Flycaster
The $86 Is for battery replacement and gaskets, and for checking the
watch out. Of course, one would expect that if work is done on the
watch, other than the battery, then some of this cost should be written
off on the repair, eh?
My movement was working, but was "dry/dirty and damaged." The crown was
"damaged." It is a gold crown, BTW.

Gold plated.

Post by Flycaster
Yes, the watch was sent in because the stem came out several times when
setting the watch.
In speaking with the tech, he said that movement needed to be replaced
as the something, or other, was broken and the stem could be refitted
into a holding position (my words).

Setting lever ? An easily replacable part costing maybe 20 bucks
retail.
I think what you may be experienceing is the *current* crop of
watchmakers who work for bigger companies and anything past a dunk in
the duo lube must be a new movement.. watchmakers my arse.

Post by Flycaster
The tech told me that the Ebel caliber 83 was also used by Cartier.

Right, so obviously Cartier buys their movements from the Ebel
factory. LOL and the Adina on my bench is using TAG movements. :-)

Post by Flycaster
I'd certainly like to have an independent watchmaker look at the watch,
but I'm having trouble finding one! Most of the watch repair guys are
associated with jewelery stores.

Drop by any time. I'm just 20,000 miles off to your left.. :)
It doesn't really matter if they are associated with a jewellery
store. Get them to give you a quote on the repair and make sure that
you get at least what's called a "firm quote".
Or fire up your local yellow pages and look for a jewellery store that
has what sounds like a family name.. ie: Jill and Joe's watch repairs
or Phil the Jeweller. These smaller guys are likely to be watchmakers
themselves, have one on the premises or use an independent subby like
me. If the latter, you'd have to leave the watch for a few days.
Don't mention Ebel's quote.You haven't been to Ebel at all, right ? :)

Post by Flycaster

Post by Jack Denver
BTW, it's not even clear that the watch needs a movement. The defect appears
to be that the stem is loose, not that the watch is not running. A real
watchmaker and not a ripoff house should be able to reinstall the stem
without having to replace the whole movement. It would not surprise me if an
honest watchmaker could get his watch back in shape for well under $100.

Well, if it is as i (we) suspect an ETA 955 or similar, the price
would be about 75-85 for the service. 20 bucks for the set lever, 30
for a crystal, 12 for the back seal. WPT is 20 bucks and whatever the
crown may cost goes on top of that.
We're still looking at about 160 bucks, leaving room for a 3-400
dollar crown. :-)

[Jack Denver]

I see the same thing going on with auto mechanics. The dealer wanted $300
for a new starter on my Chrylser minivan. I went to the local auto electric
shop (place where they rebuild starters and alternators) and he sold me a
new set of solenoid contacts for $1. Put them in and starter is good for
another 80k miles. We don't have tradesmen anymore, we have parts swappers.

Post by Frank Adam
Setting lever ? An easily replacable part costing maybe 20 bucks
retail.
I think what you may be experienceing is the *current* crop of
watchmakers who work for bigger companies and anything past a dunk in
the duo lube must be a new movement.. watchmakers my arse.