Discussion:
how do the Chinese do it
(too old to reply)
Richard Wright
2011-06-11 01:39:05 UTC
Permalink
Does anybody know about the manufacturing procedures used in China to
make mechanical automatics?

I have three bought off eBay. They have kept good time for three
months, yet cost merely $10 for purchase and $10 for airmail postage.

They have glass crystals, manual winding backup, with day and date
dials.

What I can't begin to envisage is how they make them for that price?
Is it sweatshop labour, or have they developed some automated robotic
jigs to assemble them?

I also wonder whether the chief market is for the lowly paid in China.
The price, even when exported, is below the cost of having a battery
replaced.

I was in remoter parts of eastern Europe ten years ago. A Seiko 5
automatic was a much prized item, and took a front place in shops
selling watches in small towns. It was explained to me that people
living away in the hills could not change batteries without an
unwanted visit to town. They would throw the Seiko away when it
stopped after five years or so. I am wondering whether the same
economies of price and convenience are happening in China.
Fraser Johnston
2011-06-14 04:53:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Wright
Does anybody know about the manufacturing procedures used in China to
make mechanical automatics?
I have three bought off eBay. They have kept good time for three
months, yet cost merely $10 for purchase and $10 for airmail postage.
They have glass crystals, manual winding backup, with day and date
dials.
What I can't begin to envisage is how they make them for that price?
Is it sweatshop labour, or have they developed some automated robotic
jigs to assemble them?
Both. And economies of scale. They are making literally millions of them.

Fraser
Revision
2011-07-08 00:16:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Wright
Does anybody know about the manufacturing procedures used in China to
make mechanical automatics?
I have three bought off eBay. They have kept good time for three
months, yet cost merely $10 for purchase and $10 for airmail postage.
If you take a look at the mechanism inside an alpha brand watch, which
I believe is made by the Seagull company, the quality is not bad at
all. The balance spring is beautiful and precisely made, not junk,
and far better than, say, a Russian Raketa.

A few years ago I bought a bicycle chain made in China at a shop in
Thailand. It was in the box and priced at $1.50. Asia is relatively
poor, stuff is priced according to the local market conditions.

Thirty dollars is a more usual price for a Chinese alpha watch on
eBay, but who knows, maybe in a rural village in China they could go
for ten bucks
dAz
2011-07-08 03:12:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Revision
Post by Richard Wright
Does anybody know about the manufacturing procedures used in China to
make mechanical automatics?
I have three bought off eBay. They have kept good time for three
months, yet cost merely $10 for purchase and $10 for airmail postage.
If you take a look at the mechanism inside an alpha brand watch, which
I believe is made by the Seagull company, the quality is not bad at
all. The balance spring is beautiful and precisely made, not junk,
and far better than, say, a Russian Raketa.
A few years ago I bought a bicycle chain made in China at a shop in
Thailand. It was in the box and priced at $1.50. Asia is relatively
poor, stuff is priced according to the local market conditions.
Thirty dollars is a more usual price for a Chinese alpha watch on
eBay, but who knows, maybe in a rural village in China they could go
for ten bucks
yep, the Seagull 2824, 2892 clones are quite nice, I have been wearing a
Unitas 6497 seagull clone for the last 12 months or so, it keeps quite
reasonable time, 52hour power reserve b-Uhr style, not a great drama
winding it each day, I wanted to see how durable the black PVD coating
on the stainless steel was, quite impressed actually, other watches that
had painted or anodised alloy cases usually show signs of wear after a
few months, this one shows no wear except where the leather band middle
rubs the case between the lugs, and you cannot see that unless you take
the band off.

I have a Venus 175 chrono automatic made by seagull, seagull bought the
old machines and dies for this calibre, originally a manual wind, they
have added an automatic to it, very nice job, silvered plates with blued
screws against the brass of the wheels.

seeing swatch is trying to disappear up it's own arse and not supply
movements to anyone not in their own group, the chinese are catching up.

parts supply is a problem, but a new 2892 clone is about $40-50, so just
fit a new movement and keep the old one for spares.

dAz
dizzy
2011-07-12 22:51:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by dAz
yep, the Seagull 2824, 2892 clones are quite nice, I have been wearing a
Unitas 6497 seagull clone for the last 12 months or so, it keeps quite
reasonable time,
But was that $10?
dAz
2011-07-13 13:46:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by dizzy
Post by dAz
yep, the Seagull 2824, 2892 clones are quite nice, I have been
wearing a Unitas 6497 seagull clone for the last 12 months or so,
it keeps quite reasonable time,
But was that $10?
no, about $100, but what's $100 these days?, people spend that filling
the car with fuel.

there is a german made version of this watch I have with a real UT6497,
that is about $800, if it's worth that much is another matter.

anyway I am quite happy with this watch, the PVD coating is proving very
durable, I haven't seen any for less than $85 so far,

I have no idea what Richard bought, but they do make miyota and seiko
clones and other odder variations in the thousands and thousands, so a
$10 watch not hard to see.

I have been told by a reliable source that swatch are planing to make
the stock eta autodate for a price point of $12-$13, the normal price
for an eta 2824 is about $150, the seagull clone is around $40, I would
think swatch intend to use these movements to do a straight swap out on
warranty work and general servicing, this is going to prove great for my
trade, I mean why train a watchmaker for 4 years or more when you can
train a monkey for a couple of months to swap out movements and change
batteries.

tried to buy a mainspring for a vintage waltham pocket watch the other
day, it's only 130years old, always have be able to buy springs for
these, except was told by my supplier that they can no longer supply,
why? well it seem when swatch took over quite a few companies in
Switzerland, one of them was Resorts SA, a maker of all things in watch
mainsprings, I don't know how long they have been in business, probably
a 100 years or more, they supplied springs for everybody, well no
longer, the first thing swatch did was to cease all production and only
make springs for their watches, thank you swatch.

I did find a new spring, I shaved one down that was too wide, but had
the right thickness and length,no I was not going to buy a blue steel
spring from ebay, because if they are anything like the ones I have in
the box they have gone rusty or stressed fractured into many pieces, the
watch is working fine.

excuse me now, I have sudden urge to introduce a swatch to a large hammer :)

dAz
Alex W.
2011-07-14 00:12:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by dAz
tried to buy a mainspring for a vintage waltham pocket watch the other
day, it's only 130years old, always have be able to buy springs for
these, except was told by my supplier that they can no longer supply,
why? well it seem when swatch took over quite a few companies in
Switzerland, one of them was Resorts SA, a maker of all things in watch
mainsprings, I don't know how long they have been in business, probably
a 100 years or more, they supplied springs for everybody, well no
longer, the first thing swatch did was to cease all production and only
make springs for their watches, thank you swatch.
I did find a new spring, I shaved one down that was too wide, but had
the right thickness and length,no I was not going to buy a blue steel
spring from ebay, because if they are anything like the ones I have in
the box they have gone rusty or stressed fractured into many pieces, the
watch is working fine.
excuse me now, I have sudden urge to introduce a swatch to a large hammer :)
Stop whinging.
You have it easy.

Walthams -- vintage or not -- are mass-produced and standardised.
Try finding a mainspring for an English watch from that same
period. Then it becomes a matter of knowing the right retired
engineer working in a garden shed somewhere who might run you up
a one-off proper blued-steel mainspring for the love of horology
and challenge of the job.

For that matter, mainsprings are *easy*. Glass is harder to
source, and enamel dials are next to impossible.
dAz
2011-07-14 03:53:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex W.
Stop whinging.
You have it easy.
:)
Post by Alex W.
Walthams -- vintage or not -- are mass-produced and standardised.
yes they are, but parts are getting harder to find, I do have some old
parts and old movements, that helps
Post by Alex W.
Try finding a mainspring for an English watch from that same
period. Then it becomes a matter of knowing the right retired
engineer working in a garden shed somewhere who might run you up
a one-off proper blued-steel mainspring for the love of horology
and challenge of the job.
one, I don't like blue steel mainsprings, I always try to fit the
stainless unbreakable, I have boxes of blue springs, most now are
useless, they have rusted, or set or stress cracked into multiple
segments, I did have one blue spring that was close for the waltham, but
it was in 20 pieces, brand new old stock, still in the original packet,
always been stored in a clean dry area, I see them on eBay, but the
seller will not take them out of the packet to show, preserving
originality is the usual BS, so will not buy them, I don't how many
times over the years in fitting a new blue spring in a watch just to
have it come back with broken spring, sometimes they don't even get out
of the workshop before it snaps.

as for english fuzee watches, I find the mainspring is normally pretty
good because it is not stressed as much as in a normal going barrel
watch, it's never allowed to full run down or be fully wound up, I don't
mind the odd english watch, rehooking fuzees, turning staffs,
Post by Alex W.
For that matter, mainsprings are *easy*. Glass is harder to
source, and enamel dials are next to impossible.
I just use the thin plastic for the hunters, ran out of the popular
sized crystals ages ago, dials, got a box full of the things, no idea
what they fit, also have a large assortment of shaped glass for ladies
watches the type from the 20s and 30s, ovals, square, rectangles, curved
you name it, and another box of oval slightly domed glasses that look to
be used in those broaches from the victorian era for placing locks of
hair or dried flowers under.
Alex W.
2011-07-15 11:13:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by dAz
Post by Alex W.
Stop whinging.
You have it easy.
:)
Post by Alex W.
Walthams -- vintage or not -- are mass-produced and standardised.
yes they are, but parts are getting harder to find, I do have some old
parts and old movements, that helps
Cannibalising old watches is a time-honoured tradition.
It probably also helps to explain the enduring popularity or
American pocket watches.
Post by dAz
Post by Alex W.
Try finding a mainspring for an English watch from that same
period. Then it becomes a matter of knowing the right retired
engineer working in a garden shed somewhere who might run you up
a one-off proper blued-steel mainspring for the love of horology
and challenge of the job.
one, I don't like blue steel mainsprings, I always try to fit the
stainless unbreakable, I have boxes of blue springs, most now are
useless, they have rusted, or set or stress cracked into multiple
segments, I did have one blue spring that was close for the waltham, but
it was in 20 pieces, brand new old stock, still in the original packet,
always been stored in a clean dry area, I see them on eBay, but the
seller will not take them out of the packet to show, preserving
originality is the usual BS, so will not buy them, I don't how many
times over the years in fitting a new blue spring in a watch just to
have it come back with broken spring, sometimes they don't even get out
of the workshop before it snaps.
Must be shoddy second-rate American gear -- I have had and
handled blued mainsprings that have happily powered watches and
marine chronometers for two hundred years or longer without
complaint.
Post by dAz
as for english fuzee watches, I find the mainspring is normally pretty
good because it is not stressed as much as in a normal going barrel
watch, it's never allowed to full run down or be fully wound up, I don't
mind the odd english watch, rehooking fuzees, turning staffs,
That my help to explain why I do not see as many dodgy
mainsprings as you do.

As for rehooking a fusee or turning a staff, at a guess I'd say
that eight out of ten people mislabelling themselves as
"watchmakers" wouldn't know a pinion if you hammered one up their
nostril with a mallet.

But then, ignorance is still preferable to partial knowledge --
plonkers who think they are being clever when they slap jewelled
pallets into an early 18th-century verge, for instance.
Post by dAz
Post by Alex W.
For that matter, mainsprings are *easy*. Glass is harder to
source, and enamel dials are next to impossible.
I just use the thin plastic for the hunters, ran out of the popular
sized crystals ages ago, dials, got a box full of the things, no idea
what they fit, also have a large assortment of shaped glass for ladies
watches the type from the 20s and 30s, ovals, square, rectangles, curved
you name it, and another box of oval slightly domed glasses that look to
be used in those broaches from the victorian era for placing locks of
hair or dried flowers under.
Plastic instead of glass? Remind me to never buy an antique
watch from you!
;-)

Seriously, though: I do hope you inform the proud owners that
plastic "glass" or plastic dials can significantly reduce the
value of their piece.
dAz
2011-07-16 01:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
Post by Alex W.
Stop whinging.
You have it easy.
:)
Post by Alex W.
Walthams -- vintage or not -- are mass-produced and standardised.
yes they are, but parts are getting harder to find, I do have some old
parts and old movements, that helps
Cannibalising old watches is a time-honoured tradition.
It probably also helps to explain the enduring popularity or
American pocket watches.
Post by dAz
Post by Alex W.
Try finding a mainspring for an English watch from that same
period. Then it becomes a matter of knowing the right retired
engineer working in a garden shed somewhere who might run you up
a one-off proper blued-steel mainspring for the love of horology
and challenge of the job.
one, I don't like blue steel mainsprings, I always try to fit the
stainless unbreakable, I have boxes of blue springs, most now are
useless, they have rusted, or set or stress cracked into multiple
segments, I did have one blue spring that was close for the waltham, but
it was in 20 pieces, brand new old stock, still in the original packet,
always been stored in a clean dry area, I see them on eBay, but the
seller will not take them out of the packet to show, preserving
originality is the usual BS, so will not buy them, I don't how many
times over the years in fitting a new blue spring in a watch just to
have it come back with broken spring, sometimes they don't even get out
of the workshop before it snaps.
Must be shoddy second-rate American gear -- I have had and
handled blued mainsprings that have happily powered watches and
marine chronometers for two hundred years or longer without
complaint.
clocks are different, very rare that I have to replace a spring in a
fuzee driven clock and watches.

the springs in question, some are american, some are swiss, if I take
the blue steel spring of the holder they are generally set, some are so
bad they just fall out of the holder, the others well stress fractures
is quite common, I simply cannot trust an old stock blue spring anymore,
specially if you have to replace one in a complex watch like a chrono or
repeater.
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
as for english fuzee watches, I find the mainspring is normally pretty
good because it is not stressed as much as in a normal going barrel
watch, it's never allowed to full run down or be fully wound up, I don't
mind the odd english watch, rehooking fuzees, turning staffs,
That my help to explain why I do not see as many dodgy
mainsprings as you do.
As for rehooking a fusee or turning a staff, at a guess I'd say
that eight out of ten people mislabelling themselves as
"watchmakers" wouldn't know a pinion if you hammered one up their
nostril with a mallet.
But then, ignorance is still preferable to partial knowledge --
plonkers who think they are being clever when they slap jewelled
pallets into an early 18th-century verge, for instance.
sounds like a lot of work for little gain, verges are not that hard to make.
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
Post by Alex W.
For that matter, mainsprings are *easy*. Glass is harder to
source, and enamel dials are next to impossible.
I just use the thin plastic for the hunters, ran out of the popular
sized crystals ages ago, dials, got a box full of the things, no idea
what they fit, also have a large assortment of shaped glass for ladies
watches the type from the 20s and 30s, ovals, square, rectangles, curved
you name it, and another box of oval slightly domed glasses that look to
be used in those broaches from the victorian era for placing locks of
hair or dried flowers under.
Plastic instead of glass? Remind me to never buy an antique
watch from you!
;-)
Seriously, though: I do hope you inform the proud owners that
plastic "glass" or plastic dials can significantly reduce the
value of their piece.
well they do know, plus I simply cannot buy the thin hunter crystals in
the diameter or heights needed, provided the bezel is in good condition
you can fit the very thin plexi and adjust the height by fitting a
slightly larger or smaller diameter plexi, this is where the Robur glass
tool comes into it's own.

the other thing is these thin plexis are high quality and do look like
the old type crystals once fitted, and I would rather have a plexi in
place to protect the dial and hands than nothing at all.

open faced watches I try and fit crystals to those unless it originally
came with a plexi
Alex W.
2011-07-16 23:48:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by dAz
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
Post by Alex W.
Stop whinging.
You have it easy.
:)
Post by Alex W.
Walthams -- vintage or not -- are mass-produced and standardised.
yes they are, but parts are getting harder to find, I do have some old
parts and old movements, that helps
Cannibalising old watches is a time-honoured tradition.
It probably also helps to explain the enduring popularity or
American pocket watches.
Post by dAz
Post by Alex W.
Try finding a mainspring for an English watch from that same
period. Then it becomes a matter of knowing the right retired
engineer working in a garden shed somewhere who might run you up
a one-off proper blued-steel mainspring for the love of horology
and challenge of the job.
one, I don't like blue steel mainsprings, I always try to fit the
stainless unbreakable, I have boxes of blue springs, most now are
useless, they have rusted, or set or stress cracked into multiple
segments, I did have one blue spring that was close for the waltham, but
it was in 20 pieces, brand new old stock, still in the original packet,
always been stored in a clean dry area, I see them on eBay, but the
seller will not take them out of the packet to show, preserving
originality is the usual BS, so will not buy them, I don't how many
times over the years in fitting a new blue spring in a watch just to
have it come back with broken spring, sometimes they don't even get out
of the workshop before it snaps.
Must be shoddy second-rate American gear -- I have had and
handled blued mainsprings that have happily powered watches and
marine chronometers for two hundred years or longer without
complaint.
clocks are different, very rare that I have to replace a spring in a
fuzee driven clock and watches.
the springs in question, some are american, some are swiss, if I take
the blue steel spring of the holder they are generally set, some are so
bad they just fall out of the holder, the others well stress fractures
is quite common, I simply cannot trust an old stock blue spring anymore,
specially if you have to replace one in a complex watch like a chrono or
repeater.
You don't find them different? Old blued springs are not as
"springy", IYKWIM. Isn't there a risk of having too strong a
spring?
Post by dAz
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
as for english fuzee watches, I find the mainspring is normally pretty
good because it is not stressed as much as in a normal going barrel
watch, it's never allowed to full run down or be fully wound up, I don't
mind the odd english watch, rehooking fuzees, turning staffs,
That my help to explain why I do not see as many dodgy
mainsprings as you do.
As for rehooking a fusee or turning a staff, at a guess I'd say
that eight out of ten people mislabelling themselves as
"watchmakers" wouldn't know a pinion if you hammered one up their
nostril with a mallet.
But then, ignorance is still preferable to partial knowledge --
plonkers who think they are being clever when they slap jewelled
pallets into an early 18th-century verge, for instance.
sounds like a lot of work for little gain, verges are not that hard to make.
They're not; it's idiots playing around, not really knowing what
they are doing.
Post by dAz
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
Post by Alex W.
For that matter, mainsprings are *easy*. Glass is harder to
source, and enamel dials are next to impossible.
I just use the thin plastic for the hunters, ran out of the popular
sized crystals ages ago, dials, got a box full of the things, no idea
what they fit, also have a large assortment of shaped glass for ladies
watches the type from the 20s and 30s, ovals, square, rectangles, curved
you name it, and another box of oval slightly domed glasses that look to
be used in those broaches from the victorian era for placing locks of
hair or dried flowers under.
Plastic instead of glass? Remind me to never buy an antique
watch from you!
;-)
Seriously, though: I do hope you inform the proud owners that
plastic "glass" or plastic dials can significantly reduce the
value of their piece.
well they do know, plus I simply cannot buy the thin hunter crystals in
the diameter or heights needed, provided the bezel is in good condition
you can fit the very thin plexi and adjust the height by fitting a
slightly larger or smaller diameter plexi, this is where the Robur glass
tool comes into it's own.
I guess we're lucky over here; I can still find old glass for
most any watch.
dAz
2011-07-17 01:05:12 UTC
Permalink
.
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
the springs in question, some are american, some are swiss, if I take
the blue steel spring of the holder they are generally set, some are so
bad they just fall out of the holder, the others well stress fractures
is quite common, I simply cannot trust an old stock blue spring anymore,
specially if you have to replace one in a complex watch like a chrono or
repeater.
You don't find them different? Old blued springs are not as
"springy", IYKWIM. Isn't there a risk of having too strong a
spring?
yes they can be a bit stronger, but I just fit a slightly weaker spring
if the amplitude of the balance is so great that it risks overbanking,
this where the Generale Ressorts SA of Biemme Suisse little blue
handbook GR2 1974 edition comes into it's own, it lists every spring
they made, you can easily go down the list for a stronger or weaker
spring and the calibre that it fits

not sure if this is the company that was taken over by swatch.
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
Post by Alex W.
Plastic instead of glass? Remind me to never buy an antique
watch from you!
;-)
Seriously, though: I do hope you inform the proud owners that
plastic "glass" or plastic dials can significantly reduce the
value of their piece.
well they do know, plus I simply cannot buy the thin hunter crystals in
the diameter or heights needed, provided the bezel is in good condition
you can fit the very thin plexi and adjust the height by fitting a
slightly larger or smaller diameter plexi, this is where the Robur glass
tool comes into it's own.
I guess we're lucky over here; I can still find old glass for
most any watch.
when I first started in the trade some 40 odd years ago, there were at
least 6 general parts suppliers in Sydney, now there is one and there
stock is going down on the older stuff, one supplier that was taken over
in the 80s still had a vast array of pocket watch crystals, but he had
been around since the ark, don't know what happened to that, old watches
weren't the thing then, those new fangle quartz took over ;)

far as I am concerned fitting one of these very thin plexis into a
hunting case doesn't take the value away from the watch, and I would
rather have something there to protect the hands and dial, because no
matter how many times you tell them not to the customer will finger the
hands and dial.

on a open faced watch yes I do try to fit a crystal,
Alex W.
2011-07-17 12:16:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by dAz
.
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
the springs in question, some are american, some are swiss, if I take
the blue steel spring of the holder they are generally set, some are so
bad they just fall out of the holder, the others well stress fractures
is quite common, I simply cannot trust an old stock blue spring anymore,
specially if you have to replace one in a complex watch like a chrono or
repeater.
You don't find them different? Old blued springs are not as
"springy", IYKWIM. Isn't there a risk of having too strong a
spring?
yes they can be a bit stronger, but I just fit a slightly weaker spring
if the amplitude of the balance is so great that it risks overbanking,
this where the Generale Ressorts SA of Biemme Suisse little blue
handbook GR2 1974 edition comes into it's own, it lists every spring
they made, you can easily go down the list for a stronger or weaker
spring and the calibre that it fits
not sure if this is the company that was taken over by swatch.
AIFAIK, they are still independent, part of the Acrotec group.
Post by dAz
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
Post by Alex W.
Plastic instead of glass? Remind me to never buy an antique
watch from you!
;-)
Seriously, though: I do hope you inform the proud owners that
plastic "glass" or plastic dials can significantly reduce the
value of their piece.
well they do know, plus I simply cannot buy the thin hunter crystals in
the diameter or heights needed, provided the bezel is in good condition
you can fit the very thin plexi and adjust the height by fitting a
slightly larger or smaller diameter plexi, this is where the Robur glass
tool comes into it's own.
I guess we're lucky over here; I can still find old glass for
most any watch.
when I first started in the trade some 40 odd years ago, there were at
least 6 general parts suppliers in Sydney, now there is one and there
stock is going down on the older stuff, one supplier that was taken over
in the 80s still had a vast array of pocket watch crystals, but he had
been around since the ark, don't know what happened to that, old watches
weren't the thing then, those new fangle quartz took over ;)
In a way, it is slightly odd that there is no manufacturer out
there still making these. AFter all, there are still makers of
buggy whips, manufacturers of valves and producers of vinyl
records. The demand may be small, but in this day and age of the
internet, I would have thought it quite feasible to have a
globally operating company for such specialised products.
Post by dAz
far as I am concerned fitting one of these very thin plexis into a
hunting case doesn't take the value away from the watch, and I would
rather have something there to protect the hands and dial, because no
matter how many times you tell them not to the customer will finger the
hands and dial.
It's really a question of originality. You wouldn't fit any old
crown on a wristwatch, either, would you?
dAz
2011-07-18 01:47:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
when I first started in the trade some 40 odd years ago, there were at
least 6 general parts suppliers in Sydney, now there is one and there
stock is going down on the older stuff, one supplier that was taken over
in the 80s still had a vast array of pocket watch crystals, but he had
been around since the ark, don't know what happened to that, old watches
weren't the thing then, those new fangle quartz took over ;)
In a way, it is slightly odd that there is no manufacturer out
there still making these. AFter all, there are still makers of
buggy whips, manufacturers of valves and producers of vinyl
records. The demand may be small, but in this day and age of the
internet, I would have thought it quite feasible to have a
globally operating company for such specialised products.
a lot came out of japan in the later years, judging by the labels on
some of the old stock I have.

pocket watches go through a fashion, most people that have them here
only have them as keepsakes, they don't wear them, cannot remember the
last time saw someone with a waist coat, but then I don't get to the
city much ;)
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
far as I am concerned fitting one of these very thin plexis into a
hunting case doesn't take the value away from the watch, and I would
rather have something there to protect the hands and dial, because no
matter how many times you tell them not to the customer will finger the
hands and dial.
It's really a question of originality. You wouldn't fit any old
crown on a wristwatch, either, would you?
I have a 1928 model A Ford, mostly original with some practical updates,
the distributor is new, still works the same way, mechanical spark
advance, however it has modern points inside that last a lot longer than
the original type, also easier to service, the sea air rusts things to
hell here, so the bumpers are stainless steel, but are in the correct
shape and style, it still has only one tail light, but I use halogen
bulbs that fit the original sockets in the stop light and headlights, I
use an alternator mainly because I do drive it at night and I like the
battery to be kept charged up, none of this permanent, can easily be
changed back, none of this has affected the car value

same for plastic or crystal, it makes no difference to me if on a hunter
the glass is plastic or crystal, I have watched both a customer and one
of the staff in the shops I have worked in put their thumb through the
new crystals just fitted to the watch.

in one case the customer had to go without because that was the last
crystal the supplier had that fitted and the very thin plexis were not
around, now if you are talking about a bullseye thick crystal in a
hunter with the port cut out in the lid, quite a different matter.

in case you are interested the thin hunter plexis are made by
Sternkreuz, they are Savonnette Extra Dünn or Hunter extra thin, these
can only be fitted with a robur type glass tool to compress the plexi
before fitting into the bezel, as I said, you can adjust the height by
fitting slightly larger or smaller diameter plexi, something you cannot
do with a crystal.

I think the robur tool was made at the time when watchmakers used to fit
celluloid glasses to watches, I do remember seeing a special cutter that
would cut the glass from sheet celluloid and with a bevelled edge, the
robur dies would curve the flat glass to fit the bezel, the downside the
celluloid would go yellow after a while, apart from being flammable ;)

Loading Image...
Frank Adam
2011-07-18 02:12:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by dAz
I think the robur tool was made at the time when watchmakers used to fit
celluloid glasses to watches, I do remember seeing a special cutter that
would cut the glass from sheet celluloid and with a bevelled edge, the
robur dies would curve the flat glass to fit the bezel, the downside the
Yeah, we used that cutter, but very rarely.. Back then we could pick and
choose pocket glasses and the old "sorry, don't have a 418 mineral hunter"
were words i didn't understand. Come to think the only time we used that thing
was when the boss was in a "saving mode" or we had a deadline.

Ahh, the days when i'd have 20 things on the parts shopping list and 18 of
them would be crossed out upon leaving the counter with the other 2 arriving
2-3 days later from Sydney..
Post by dAz
celluloid would go yellow after a while, apart from being flammable ;)
One of the reasons i've always wanted an apprentice is to give him an old
watch with one of those glasses and get him to polish it. <sigh> Just another
of my life ambitions failed.. :)
Post by dAz
http://members.optushome.com.au/daz7/horological/Robur1.jpg
Well you use these for both low and high chevees too.
--
Regards, Frank
Alex W.
2011-07-18 11:38:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by dAz
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
when I first started in the trade some 40 odd years ago, there were at
least 6 general parts suppliers in Sydney, now there is one and there
stock is going down on the older stuff, one supplier that was taken over
in the 80s still had a vast array of pocket watch crystals, but he had
been around since the ark, don't know what happened to that, old watches
weren't the thing then, those new fangle quartz took over ;)
In a way, it is slightly odd that there is no manufacturer out
there still making these. AFter all, there are still makers of
buggy whips, manufacturers of valves and producers of vinyl
records. The demand may be small, but in this day and age of the
internet, I would have thought it quite feasible to have a
globally operating company for such specialised products.
a lot came out of japan in the later years, judging by the labels on
some of the old stock I have.
pocket watches go through a fashion, most people that have them here
only have them as keepsakes, they don't wear them, cannot remember the
last time saw someone with a waist coat, but then I don't get to the
city much ;)
One reason is clear to me: even when us blokes may want to wear a
pocket watch, we cannot because 90% of the global supply of
Albert watch chains are actually hanging round the necks of silly
girls!
;-)

In Europe, it's not quite as bad because their watch-chains often
came with a big spring clasp rather than a bar:

http://cgi.ebay.de/Jugendstil-Herren-Taschenuhrenkette-/110715262265?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item19c724d539

This makes them very usable even in today's casual times -- just
hook the chain onto the nearest belt look of your jeans and Bruce
is your uncle.

As a habitual browser at antique fairs and markets, I have also
noted that there seems to be a semi-fashion among young people to
wear pocket watches. True, these are usually el cheapo
base-metal Chinese crap on chromed chains worn with baggy jeans,
but still -- it's a start.
Post by dAz
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
far as I am concerned fitting one of these very thin plexis into a
hunting case doesn't take the value away from the watch, and I would
rather have something there to protect the hands and dial, because no
matter how many times you tell them not to the customer will finger the
hands and dial.
It's really a question of originality. You wouldn't fit any old
crown on a wristwatch, either, would you?
I have a 1928 model A Ford, mostly original with some practical updates,
the distributor is new, still works the same way, mechanical spark
advance, however it has modern points inside that last a lot longer than
the original type, also easier to service, the sea air rusts things to
hell here, so the bumpers are stainless steel, but are in the correct
shape and style, it still has only one tail light, but I use halogen
bulbs that fit the original sockets in the stop light and headlights, I
use an alternator mainly because I do drive it at night and I like the
battery to be kept charged up, none of this permanent, can easily be
changed back, none of this has affected the car value
If you drive it at night, I hope you have roo bars fitted as
well!

If parts can be swapped back and parts restored to the original,
it's not a big issue -- personally, I always appreciated the
value of brakes that have slightly more stopping power than wet
cardboard -- but it does diminish the value of the car unless and
until that is actually done, or until you find a customer who
wants to use the car in the same way you do.
Post by dAz
same for plastic or crystal, it makes no difference to me if on a hunter
the glass is plastic or crystal, I have watched both a customer and one
of the staff in the shops I have worked in put their thumb through the
new crystals just fitted to the watch.
Heh.
Not nearly as much fun, though, as watching them jam a minute
hand under their thumb-nail when trying to open the movement (an
old pair-cased verge).
<BEG>
Post by dAz
in one case the customer had to go without because that was the last
crystal the supplier had that fitted and the very thin plexis were not
around, now if you are talking about a bullseye thick crystal in a
hunter with the port cut out in the lid, quite a different matter.
in case you are interested the thin hunter plexis are made by
Sternkreuz, they are Savonnette Extra Dünn or Hunter extra thin, these
can only be fitted with a robur type glass tool to compress the plexi
before fitting into the bezel, as I said, you can adjust the height by
fitting slightly larger or smaller diameter plexi, something you cannot
do with a crystal.
That is an advantage, true.
Post by dAz
I think the robur tool was made at the time when watchmakers used to fit
celluloid glasses to watches, I do remember seeing a special cutter that
would cut the glass from sheet celluloid and with a bevelled edge, the
robur dies would curve the flat glass to fit the bezel, the downside the
celluloid would go yellow after a while, apart from being flammable ;)
http://members.optushome.com.au/daz7/horological/Robur1.jpg
I'm amazed and impressed that you figured out how to use the
robur tool -- the instructions are in French!
:-P
Frank Adam
2011-07-18 01:59:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
when I first started in the trade some 40 odd years ago, there were at
least 6 general parts suppliers in Sydney, now there is one and there
stock is going down on the older stuff, one supplier that was taken over
in the 80s still had a vast array of pocket watch crystals, but he had
been around since the ark, don't know what happened to that, old watches
weren't the thing then, those new fangle quartz took over ;)
Ahh, god old.. what was the old man's name ? Cutlers ?
We were getting stuff from him many years ago, thing that we could no longer
get down here. And we still had 3 major suppliers at that time.
My long time supplier closed his city store and moved the business to his
home. Yes, i'm buying watch parts from a guy who works out of his garage. :)
Only drawback is that he keeps weird hours now, but he knows his parts.

BTW, don't you still have 2 suppliers up there or do you not count Sievers
either ? :)
Post by Alex W.
In a way, it is slightly odd that there is no manufacturer out
there still making these. AFter all, there are still makers of
buggy whips, manufacturers of valves and producers of vinyl
records. The demand may be small, but in this day and age of the
internet, I would have thought it quite feasible to have a
globally operating company for such specialised products.
The watch trade sucks in many ways.
I stumbled across a webpage of a company once, who do make glasses for
everything. I was looking for a huge mineral glass, 450mm or so. They will
custom make glasses for all kinds of watches, but it appeared very much like a
wholesale only place. I'm not buying 10 weird arse glasses just to fit one and
sit on 9 for eternity. The days of "gimme a gross' are well over.
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
far as I am concerned fitting one of these very thin plexis into a
hunting case doesn't take the value away from the watch, and I would
rather have something there to protect the hands and dial, because no
matter how many times you tell them not to the customer will finger the
hands and dial.
It's really a question of originality. You wouldn't fit any old
crown on a wristwatch, either, would you?
In the end it comes down to the customer. You'll find that most people simply
don't realise that we can't just ring dial-a-crown and get the precise same
one sent to us for their 100 year old watch. So it's a matter of matching a
crown that suits, but crowns are no longer available in the amount of styles
they used to be. Pink(gold) crowns for instance are getting rare as hens
teeth.
Swatch does not even supply the exact same style of crowns for some of their
older brands(Omega,Tissot, etc..) now. So you end up with a crown that looks a
bit different, but will probably still have the logo. It's kinda ok, but not
really in the "original" sense.
It becomes worse with straps, Swatch can virtually never guarantee that an
"original" strap will have an Omega logo on the buckle or that there will be
the Omega watermark(imprint?) on the inside of the strap. I've had 3-4
customers who wanted those, the rest are happy with any leather strap.

That brings us back to customers. A very few will want to wait for original
parts, most just want the thing fixed and working. Yesterday if possible.
An Omega crown is about 50-60 bucks to the customer and can be a 4-6 week
overseas order.. A similar quality 'standard' Swiss crown without the logo, is
$12-16 and i have a couple of dozen in stock at all times. Tell that to the
average customer and you'll be fitting a standard crown.

It won't get better.. collectors like yourself will always be the gem of our
customers because you are likely to understand our problems, but i'm afraid
even you will get less and less happy as the years go past.
--
Regards, Frank
dAz
2011-07-18 08:37:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Adam
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
when I first started in the trade some 40 odd years ago, there were at
least 6 general parts suppliers in Sydney, now there is one and there
stock is going down on the older stuff, one supplier that was taken over
in the 80s still had a vast array of pocket watch crystals, but he had
been around since the ark, don't know what happened to that, old watches
weren't the thing then, those new fangle quartz took over ;)
Ahh, god old.. what was the old man's name ? Cutlers ?
Roland Harris, Pickerings, G Jensens, Smith & Smith were the newbies,
Lauris, then the various agents, Roamer watches, Certina, Willis & Sons
for Rolex and Tudor, precision watch for omega/tissot plus others I
cannot remember.
Post by Frank Adam
We were getting stuff from him many years ago, thing that we could no longer
get down here. And we still had 3 major suppliers at that time.
My long time supplier closed his city store and moved the business to his
home. Yes, i'm buying watch parts from a guy who works out of his garage. :)
Only drawback is that he keeps weird hours now, but he knows his parts.
well working out of home I keep weird hours too ;)
Post by Frank Adam
BTW, don't you still have 2 suppliers up there or do you not count Sievers
either ? :)
seivers, not much, they took over Jensens, stock has gone way down since
then, bit like when Knock & Kirbys used to be in the city, you could buy
anything, when BBC took it over 3/4 of the stock disappeared,

Precise Plexis closed down a few months back because the owner retired,
so all those odd glasses and cutting service is gone, so Smith & Smith
is still hanging on, don't know how long for, Michael is not getting any
younger and he must be frustrated with the dwindling parts supplies,
poor bastard has been forced to move 3 times in the last few years
because of greedy landlords.
Post by Frank Adam
Post by Alex W.
In a way, it is slightly odd that there is no manufacturer out
there still making these. AFter all, there are still makers of
buggy whips, manufacturers of valves and producers of vinyl
records. The demand may be small, but in this day and age of the
internet, I would have thought it quite feasible to have a
globally operating company for such specialised products.
The watch trade sucks in many ways.
I stumbled across a webpage of a company once, who do make glasses for
everything. I was looking for a huge mineral glass, 450mm or so. They will
custom make glasses for all kinds of watches, but it appeared very much like a
wholesale only place. I'm not buying 10 weird arse glasses just to fit one and
sit on 9 for eternity. The days of "gimme a gross' are well over.
hmm, yep, I don't buy in bulk unless it's something like quartz clock
movements or batteries, I won't buy assortments unless the assortment
has the part I want and the customer is willing to buy the whole
assortment, because I know for sure that assortment will sit in my
drawer for the next 20years untouched.
Post by Frank Adam
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
far as I am concerned fitting one of these very thin plexis into a
hunting case doesn't take the value away from the watch, and I would
rather have something there to protect the hands and dial, because no
matter how many times you tell them not to the customer will finger the
hands and dial.
It's really a question of originality. You wouldn't fit any old
crown on a wristwatch, either, would you?
In the end it comes down to the customer. You'll find that most people simply
don't realise that we can't just ring dial-a-crown and get the precise same
one sent to us for their 100 year old watch. So it's a matter of matching a
crown that suits, but crowns are no longer available in the amount of styles
they used to be. Pink(gold) crowns for instance are getting rare as hens
teeth.
yep, yellow gold on a pink case just looks bleh.
Post by Frank Adam
Swatch does not even supply the exact same style of crowns for some of their
older brands(Omega,Tissot, etc..) now. So you end up with a crown that looks a
bit different, but will probably still have the logo. It's kinda ok, but not
really in the "original" sense.
hmm, the knurling on those 60s omega seamaster crowns is quite different
to later models.
Post by Frank Adam
It becomes worse with straps, Swatch can virtually never guarantee that an
"original" strap will have an Omega logo on the buckle or that there will be
the Omega watermark(imprint?) on the inside of the strap. I've had 3-4
customers who wanted those, the rest are happy with any leather strap.
That brings us back to customers. A very few will want to wait for original
parts, most just want the thing fixed and working. Yesterday if possible.
An Omega crown is about 50-60 bucks to the customer and can be a 4-6 week
overseas order.. A similar quality 'standard' Swiss crown without the logo, is
$12-16 and i have a couple of dozen in stock at all times. Tell that to the
average customer and you'll be fitting a standard crown.
It won't get better.. collectors like yourself will always be the gem of our
customers because you are likely to understand our problems, but i'm afraid
even you will get less and less happy as the years go past.
it may not happen in our trade, but I was watching Jay Leno on a
restoration of a White Steam car he owns, 100years old, parts are simply
not around for it, and yet with the aid of a 3d scanner and printer he
is able to have new parts made for his cars, parts printed up in plastic
that can be tried to see if it fits and works before the final product
is made in metal.

so would be nice to call up a part and have a machine make it, certainly
on the rare expensive pieces the customer will pay for the part to be
made up, on the general stuff those will just go to the back of the drawer.
Alex W.
2011-07-18 11:57:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by dAz
Post by Frank Adam
That brings us back to customers. A very few will want to wait for original
parts, most just want the thing fixed and working. Yesterday if possible.
An Omega crown is about 50-60 bucks to the customer and can be a 4-6 week
overseas order.. A similar quality 'standard' Swiss crown without the logo, is
$12-16 and i have a couple of dozen in stock at all times. Tell that to the
average customer and you'll be fitting a standard crown.
It won't get better.. collectors like yourself will always be the gem of our
customers because you are likely to understand our problems, but i'm afraid
even you will get less and less happy as the years go past.
it may not happen in our trade, but I was watching Jay Leno on a
restoration of a White Steam car he owns, 100years old, parts are simply
not around for it, and yet with the aid of a 3d scanner and printer he
is able to have new parts made for his cars, parts printed up in plastic
that can be tried to see if it fits and works before the final product
is made in metal.
so would be nice to call up a part and have a machine make it, certainly
on the rare expensive pieces the customer will pay for the part to be
made up, on the general stuff those will just go to the back of the drawer.
3D printing is the future. When the technology is a bit more
mature and the prices have come down, it should be possible to
run up custom parts at acceptable prices. The main cost then
will likely be the labour cost of the watch restorer making a
plastic model of the part needed.

http://www.economist.com/node/18114327

Ironically, it may also help to revive the watch-maker's
profession as something more than a swapper out of movements and
fitter of batteries: real expertise (and experience) will be
required to design and create these parts.
dAz
2011-07-19 00:35:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex W.
3D printing is the future. When the technology is a bit more
mature and the prices have come down, it should be possible to
run up custom parts at acceptable prices. The main cost then
will likely be the labour cost of the watch restorer making a
plastic model of the part needed.
http://www.economist.com/node/18114327
Ironically, it may also help to revive the watch-maker's
profession as something more than a swapper out of movements and
fitter of batteries: real expertise (and experience) will be
required to design and create these parts.
I like the possibility of not only restoring old pieces, but custom
making a watch, clock or jewellery just for that customer.

the next few years is going to be interesting in this field.
Frank Adam
2011-07-20 01:37:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by dAz
Post by Frank Adam
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
when I first started in the trade some 40 odd years ago, there were at
least 6 general parts suppliers in Sydney, now there is one and there
stock is going down on the older stuff, one supplier that was taken over
in the 80s still had a vast array of pocket watch crystals, but he had
been around since the ark, don't know what happened to that, old watches
weren't the thing then, those new fangle quartz took over ;)
Ahh, god old.. what was the old man's name ? Cutlers ?
Roland Harris, Pickerings, G Jensens, Smith & Smith were the newbies,
Lauris, then the various agents, Roamer watches, Certina, Willis & Sons
for Rolex and Tudor, precision watch for omega/tissot plus others I
cannot remember.
Yup, Jensens it was. The old man had parts that nobody else had. And then as
you say, later Sievers bought them out and it all went to hell.
Post by dAz
Post by Frank Adam
We were getting stuff from him many years ago, thing that we could no longer
get down here. And we still had 3 major suppliers at that time.
My long time supplier closed his city store and moved the business to his
home. Yes, i'm buying watch parts from a guy who works out of his garage. :)
Only drawback is that he keeps weird hours now, but he knows his parts.
well working out of home I keep weird hours too ;)
Me too, but i'm not selling parts. :) His opening hours are cca 8:30 to 11AM
and 3:30 to 5PM. It basically means that if i have to go to him, i'll be stuck
in the school and peak hour traffic at least one way.
Luckily most things can be done through the phone. :)
Post by dAz
Post by Frank Adam
BTW, don't you still have 2 suppliers up there or do you not count Sievers
either ? :)
seivers, not much, they took over Jensens, stock has gone way down since
then, bit like when Knock & Kirbys used to be in the city, you could buy
anything, when BBC took it over 3/4 of the stock disappeared,
Mmm.. Haven't had much luck with Sievers. I've ordered a couple of things off
them over the last 2-3 years, none arrived. Not a word, just silence.
When they say they will call back on a quote, well, they did once.
Post by dAz
Precise Plexis closed down a few months back because the owner retired,
so all those odd glasses and cutting service is gone, so Smith & Smith
is still hanging on, don't know how long for, Michael is not getting any
younger and he must be frustrated with the dwindling parts supplies,
poor bastard has been forced to move 3 times in the last few years
because of greedy landlords.
Yep, that is what drove my supplier to tears too. He changed places 2-3 times,
then settled in his garage. He also complained a lot about the non-supply, has
a big list of manufacturerers on the wall(funny how we bag Rolex, but IWC,
Piaget, Choppard etc.. are all on that list of about 15-16 brands). He gets
his Omega parts from Switzerland, because Swatch charges him a fortune.
He is in his late 60s, so not looking good at all. I see myself getting my
parts solely form overseas very soon.
Post by dAz
Post by Frank Adam
The watch trade sucks in many ways.
I stumbled across a webpage of a company once, who do make glasses for
everything. I was looking for a huge mineral glass, 450mm or so. They will
custom make glasses for all kinds of watches, but it appeared very much like a
wholesale only place. I'm not buying 10 weird arse glasses just to fit one and
sit on 9 for eternity. The days of "gimme a gross' are well over.
hmm, yep, I don't buy in bulk unless it's something like quartz clock
movements or batteries, I won't buy assortments unless the assortment
has the part I want and the customer is willing to buy the whole
assortment, because I know for sure that assortment will sit in my
drawer for the next 20years untouched.
I buy pins, clasp, seal and crown assortments. Refills can be bought for these
as i go, so it's ok if i get stuck with a few sizes, but generally i use
enough of them within a year or so. I do clear more than enough watches per
year though, so it's not that hard.
Don't tell anyone, but generally i'd make the cost of the kit back with
fitting just 3-4 of the parts. So it's not all that bad. :)
Post by dAz
Post by Frank Adam
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
far as I am concerned fitting one of these very thin plexis into a
hunting case doesn't take the value away from the watch, and I would
rather have something there to protect the hands and dial, because no
matter how many times you tell them not to the customer will finger the
hands and dial.
It's really a question of originality. You wouldn't fit any old
crown on a wristwatch, either, would you?
In the end it comes down to the customer. You'll find that most people simply
don't realise that we can't just ring dial-a-crown and get the precise same
one sent to us for their 100 year old watch. So it's a matter of matching a
crown that suits, but crowns are no longer available in the amount of styles
they used to be. Pink(gold) crowns for instance are getting rare as hens
teeth.
yep, yellow gold on a pink case just looks bleh.
I have been playing with the idea of pinking yellow crowns.
Not sure how, but i have found some old crowns that just sat around in a long
lost box and they tarnished nearly into a pinkish colour.. So, there's gotta
be a way of doing this. :)
Post by dAz
Post by Frank Adam
Swatch does not even supply the exact same style of crowns for some of their
older brands(Omega,Tissot, etc..) now. So you end up with a crown that looks a
bit different, but will probably still have the logo. It's kinda ok, but not
really in the "original" sense.
hmm, the knurling on those 60s omega seamaster crowns is quite different
to later models.
Yep. Last week i've got a standard looking crown for one that only had the 5
or so grooves originally. That old style is discontinued, at least for that
case.
Post by dAz
it may not happen in our trade, but I was watching Jay Leno on a
restoration of a White Steam car he owns, 100years old, parts are simply
not around for it, and yet with the aid of a 3d scanner and printer he
is able to have new parts made for his cars, parts printed up in plastic
that can be tried to see if it fits and works before the final product
is made in metal.
so would be nice to call up a part and have a machine make it, certainly
on the rare expensive pieces the customer will pay for the part to be
made up, on the general stuff those will just go to the back of the drawer.
Ok, you and i put together our mortgages and we go buy one of those CAD/CAM
machines and we're into the riches. ;-)
But yeah, when i saw a tooth being made in a 3D machine quite a few years ago
on one of those discovery channel programs, that was my first thought. It
could make just about anything that we need. It's just that the outlay for one
of those would be quite large.

Something like this:
http://rolanddg.com.au/solution/reverse-engineering/jewela-jwx-30

22 grand. Um..less than i thought, but still a bit steep and still no gear
cutters. Let's say you charge 200 bucks per part, it's a damn long way back
into the black.
But dammit, i'd love to play with that. Chances are it would be a small
perfectly scaled 4 cylinder boxer engine, but after that, maybe watch and
clock parts too... or a V16 engine. Nah, V16 definitely... or a Wankel before
that, but THEN definitely the watch and clock parts. ;-)
--
Regards, Frank
Alex W.
2011-07-20 11:26:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Adam
Post by dAz
Post by Frank Adam
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
when I first started in the trade some 40 odd years ago, there were at
least 6 general parts suppliers in Sydney, now there is one and there
stock is going down on the older stuff, one supplier that was taken over
in the 80s still had a vast array of pocket watch crystals, but he had
been around since the ark, don't know what happened to that, old watches
weren't the thing then, those new fangle quartz took over ;)
Ahh, god old.. what was the old man's name ? Cutlers ?
Roland Harris, Pickerings, G Jensens, Smith & Smith were the newbies,
Lauris, then the various agents, Roamer watches, Certina, Willis & Sons
for Rolex and Tudor, precision watch for omega/tissot plus others I
cannot remember.
Yup, Jensens it was. The old man had parts that nobody else had.
<giggle>

Sorry, mate, never mind me. Mind like a railway track -- one way
and dirty.
Post by Frank Adam
Post by dAz
Precise Plexis closed down a few months back because the owner retired,
so all those odd glasses and cutting service is gone, so Smith & Smith
is still hanging on, don't know how long for, Michael is not getting any
younger and he must be frustrated with the dwindling parts supplies,
poor bastard has been forced to move 3 times in the last few years
because of greedy landlords.
Yep, that is what drove my supplier to tears too. He changed places 2-3 times,
then settled in his garage. He also complained a lot about the non-supply, has
a big list of manufacturerers on the wall(funny how we bag Rolex, but IWC,
Piaget, Choppard etc.. are all on that list of about 15-16 brands). He gets
his Omega parts from Switzerland, because Swatch charges him a fortune.
He is in his late 60s, so not looking good at all. I see myself getting my
parts solely form overseas very soon.
Which may be for the best for you and your customers both.
Loyalty to the supplier is all very well, and there is a good
case to be made to support local bricks&mortar trade, but in the
end there is a limit. If you can get the same part from overseas
online sources, chances are excellent that they will cost you
25-50% less than if you were to plod on down to a supplier like
Smith&Smith -- not counting your travel and labour cost. The
only way, IMO, which would justify paying higher prices is in
service and instant availability of any and all parts you can
think of.
Post by Frank Adam
Post by dAz
Post by Frank Adam
The watch trade sucks in many ways.
I stumbled across a webpage of a company once, who do make glasses for
everything. I was looking for a huge mineral glass, 450mm or so. They will
custom make glasses for all kinds of watches, but it appeared very much like a
wholesale only place. I'm not buying 10 weird arse glasses just to fit one and
sit on 9 for eternity. The days of "gimme a gross' are well over.
hmm, yep, I don't buy in bulk unless it's something like quartz clock
movements or batteries, I won't buy assortments unless the assortment
has the part I want and the customer is willing to buy the whole
assortment, because I know for sure that assortment will sit in my
drawer for the next 20years untouched.
I buy pins, clasp, seal and crown assortments. Refills can be bought for these
as i go, so it's ok if i get stuck with a few sizes, but generally i use
enough of them within a year or so. I do clear more than enough watches per
year though, so it's not that hard.
Don't tell anyone, but generally i'd make the cost of the kit back with
fitting just 3-4 of the parts. So it's not all that bad. :)
Can you give me your address, please, so I can make sure not to
patronise your establishment when my watch dies on me?
;-)
Post by Frank Adam
Post by dAz
Post by Frank Adam
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
far as I am concerned fitting one of these very thin plexis into a
hunting case doesn't take the value away from the watch, and I would
rather have something there to protect the hands and dial, because no
matter how many times you tell them not to the customer will finger the
hands and dial.
It's really a question of originality. You wouldn't fit any old
crown on a wristwatch, either, would you?
In the end it comes down to the customer. You'll find that most people simply
don't realise that we can't just ring dial-a-crown and get the precise same
one sent to us for their 100 year old watch. So it's a matter of matching a
crown that suits, but crowns are no longer available in the amount of styles
they used to be. Pink(gold) crowns for instance are getting rare as hens
teeth.
yep, yellow gold on a pink case just looks bleh.
I have been playing with the idea of pinking yellow crowns.
Not sure how, but i have found some old crowns that just sat around in a long
lost box and they tarnished nearly into a pinkish colour.. So, there's gotta
be a way of doing this. :)
Must have been brass.
Post by Frank Adam
Ok, you and i put together our mortgages and we go buy one of those CAD/CAM
machines and we're into the riches. ;-)
Ahem -- using those machines to run off your own $50 notes is
illegal, you know...
;-)
Post by Frank Adam
But yeah, when i saw a tooth being made in a 3D machine quite a few years ago
on one of those discovery channel programs, that was my first thought. It
could make just about anything that we need. It's just that the outlay for one
of those would be quite large.
http://rolanddg.com.au/solution/reverse-engineering/jewela-jwx-30
22 grand. Um..less than i thought, but still a bit steep and still no gear
cutters. Let's say you charge 200 bucks per part, it's a damn long way back
into the black.
But dammit, i'd love to play with that. Chances are it would be a small
perfectly scaled 4 cylinder boxer engine, but after that, maybe watch and
clock parts too... or a V16 engine. Nah, V16 definitely... or a Wankel before
that, but THEN definitely the watch and clock parts. ;-)
If you think $200 is all you can charge, you haven't been keeping
up!
;-)

This is the manufacturing of the future. It is simply so much
more efficient than traditional methods. At the moment, to make
a case the manufacturer has to cut the parts out of solid blocks
of metal; that means lots of time, expense and waste -- not to
mention the inability to make particularly complex shapes. Come
3D printing, any shape becomes possible (I definitely want a
mantel clock in a case shaped like a Klein bottle :-) and only
those materials are needed that are actually used.

For watchmakers, I think this means that they will have to up
their game. While it may still be cheaper and easier to simply
swap out modules or entire movements at the lower end of the
market, 3D means there will no longer be any excuse for not
fitting an Omega crown with incorrect knurling.

At the design and manufacturing end, too, standards will have to
be higher. Recently, I was chatting to a watchmaking
acquaintance who actually makes a living designing complications
and entire movements for the big-name watch firms (you didn't
think they did all that themselves, did you?). He was grousing
how the young watchmakers who were brought up with robotics,
computerised manufacture and CAD design software simpy did not
know watches anymore -- no hands-on experience. They'd design
the most beautiful and clever complication on their PC and then
be stumped when the prototypes failed to work or, worse still,
when the new model is sent back to the factory in droves with
obscure faults because they did not know or appreciate how
different materials behave, what works and what doesn't work, why
it can be a bad thing to plan for tolerances that are simply
unsupportable in real-world use. All these people will now have
to "go back to school" because with the possibilities opening up
through 3D, such ignorance can no longer be tolerated.
dAz
2011-07-20 12:55:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Adam
Yup, Jensens it was. The old man had parts that nobody else had. And then as
you say, later Sievers bought them out and it all went to hell.
yes, he also used to have the most amazing range of tools and machinery
as well.
Post by Frank Adam
Post by dAz
Post by Frank Adam
We were getting stuff from him many years ago, thing that we could no longer
get down here. And we still had 3 major suppliers at that time.
My long time supplier closed his city store and moved the business to his
home. Yes, i'm buying watch parts from a guy who works out of his garage. :)
Only drawback is that he keeps weird hours now, but he knows his parts.
well working out of home I keep weird hours too ;)
Me too, but i'm not selling parts. :) His opening hours are cca 8:30 to 11AM
and 3:30 to 5PM. It basically means that if i have to go to him, i'll be stuck
in the school and peak hour traffic at least one way.
Luckily most things can be done through the phone. :)
sounds like he either has a part time job or likes long lunches :)
Post by Frank Adam
Yep, that is what drove my supplier to tears too. He changed places 2-3 times,
then settled in his garage. He also complained a lot about the non-supply, has
a big list of manufacturerers on the wall(funny how we bag Rolex, but IWC,
Piaget, Choppard etc.. are all on that list of about 15-16 brands). He gets
his Omega parts from Switzerland, because Swatch charges him a fortune.
He is in his late 60s, so not looking good at all. I see myself getting my
parts solely form overseas very soon.
yep, I browse ebay for some bits like batteries or gaskets, the more
common batteries I do keep in stock, but the ones that don't turn over
much I only want one or two of, some sellers on ebay will sell you a
couple batteries quite cheap including postage compared to my normal
sources, as usual I will only buy maxell or seiko.

ebay is great for the odd parts, like a new old stock balance complete
and winding gear for an american aircraft clock, seeing the last
repairer left the balance out of the customers clock, I did have a
balance staff, but is a bit hard to fit without the rest.
Post by Frank Adam
Post by dAz
Post by Frank Adam
The watch trade sucks in many ways.
I buy pins, clasp, seal and crown assortments. Refills can be bought for these
as i go, so it's ok if i get stuck with a few sizes, but generally i use
enough of them within a year or so. I do clear more than enough watches per
year though, so it's not that hard.
Don't tell anyone, but generally i'd make the cost of the kit back with
fitting just 3-4 of the parts. So it's not all that bad. :)
yeah that is about the way I do it as well, like cutting wheels for
clocks, the first customer pays for the cutter as well as the wheel if I
don't have the cutter, some cutters I do use more than once, but there
are quite a few that I have only used once in 15 years
Post by Frank Adam
http://rolanddg.com.au/solution/reverse-engineering/jewela-jwx-30
22 grand. Um..less than i thought, but still a bit steep and still no gear
cutters. Let's say you charge 200 bucks per part, it's a damn long way back
into the black.
But dammit, i'd love to play with that. Chances are it would be a small
perfectly scaled 4 cylinder boxer engine, but after that, maybe watch and
clock parts too... or a V16 engine. Nah, V16 definitely... or a Wankel before
that, but THEN definitely the watch and clock parts. ;-)
well it wasn't that long ago laser printers were in the several thousand
dollar range, the local orificeworks had a samsung mono laser printer
that does 18ppm and hold 150sheets for $39, as these 3d printers start
getting more use they will get cheaper

Alex W.
2011-07-18 11:41:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Adam
Post by Alex W.
In a way, it is slightly odd that there is no manufacturer out
there still making these. AFter all, there are still makers of
buggy whips, manufacturers of valves and producers of vinyl
records. The demand may be small, but in this day and age of the
internet, I would have thought it quite feasible to have a
globally operating company for such specialised products.
The watch trade sucks in many ways.
That's the spirit!
;-)
Post by Frank Adam
I stumbled across a webpage of a company once, who do make glasses for
everything. I was looking for a huge mineral glass, 450mm or so. They will
custom make glasses for all kinds of watches, but it appeared very much like a
wholesale only place. I'm not buying 10 weird arse glasses just to fit one and
sit on 9 for eternity. The days of "gimme a gross' are well over.
Actually, I'd be tempted to give it a try: order 10 weird
glasses, use one, drop it, use a second, and then advertise the
other eight on a couple of horological bulletin boards and stick
them up on ebay. See what happens. I'd give it better than an
even chance that most of them will be sold within a month or two.
The market is out there -- it's just a matter of reaching it.
Many of the old-established small firms still haven't quite
grasped this fact of modern retailing, sad to say.
Post by Frank Adam
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
far as I am concerned fitting one of these very thin plexis into a
hunting case doesn't take the value away from the watch, and I would
rather have something there to protect the hands and dial, because no
matter how many times you tell them not to the customer will finger the
hands and dial.
It's really a question of originality. You wouldn't fit any old
crown on a wristwatch, either, would you?
In the end it comes down to the customer. You'll find that most people simply
don't realise that we can't just ring dial-a-crown and get the precise same
one sent to us for their 100 year old watch. So it's a matter of matching a
crown that suits, but crowns are no longer available in the amount of styles
they used to be. Pink(gold) crowns for instance are getting rare as hens
teeth.
Rarity aside, matching the colour exactly is the devil's own job.
As a collector, I am not terribly concerned with some rubbing on
the crown -- it is part of its history as an object of use, after
all -- but on a couple of occasions I have had crowns re-gilded,
and it never failed to cause polite curses from my watch
restorer...
Post by Frank Adam
Swatch does not even supply the exact same style of crowns for some of their
older brands(Omega,Tissot, etc..) now. So you end up with a crown that looks a
bit different, but will probably still have the logo. It's kinda ok, but not
really in the "original" sense.
It becomes worse with straps, Swatch can virtually never guarantee that an
"original" strap will have an Omega logo on the buckle or that there will be
the Omega watermark(imprint?) on the inside of the strap. I've had 3-4
customers who wanted those, the rest are happy with any leather strap.
Straps are fine: they wear out and unless it's a real shonky one,
a replacement should not bother anyone. A buckle, OTOH, is a
branded item, part of the watch.
Post by Frank Adam
That brings us back to customers. A very few will want to wait for original
parts, most just want the thing fixed and working. Yesterday if possible.
An Omega crown is about 50-60 bucks to the customer and can be a 4-6 week
overseas order.. A similar quality 'standard' Swiss crown without the logo, is
$12-16 and i have a couple of dozen in stock at all times. Tell that to the
average customer and you'll be fitting a standard crown.
OK, but is anyone who owns an Omega really still an "average"
customer, especially in the horological wasteland that is
Australia? When told that fitting a standard crown rather than
the correct Omega crown will reduce the second-hand value of
their Seamaster by $500-800, will this Omega owner really go with
the cheap generic crown?

Anyway, you should be able to sell the Omega crown and still
undercut the official AD service charges. Those guys are
*expensive*. I've had surgery that cost less than the cost of a
simple clean and lube from the authorised dealer!
Post by Frank Adam
It won't get better.. collectors like yourself will always be the gem of our
customers because you are likely to understand our problems, but i'm afraid
even you will get less and less happy as the years go past.
That's already happening, I'm afraid. Much of what I need has to
be made from scratch, at least in pocket watches. This is not
entirely unpredictable, as standardisation only really came in
with the Yanks, but what really hurts is that if I need a case
made, or a metal dial or a detent spring, I can count the number
of people who can do this on the fingers of one hand. The skills
are dying out, and this little collecting bunny is far from happy
already.
Alex W.
2011-07-17 12:20:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by dAz
when I first started in the trade some 40 odd years ago, there were at
least 6 general parts suppliers in Sydney, now there is one and there
stock is going down on the older stuff, one supplier that was taken over
in the 80s still had a vast array of pocket watch crystals, but he had
been around since the ark, don't know what happened to that, old watches
weren't the thing then, those new fangle quartz took over ;)
Forgot to ask: any recommendations on dealers of vintage and
pocket watches in the Sydney area? The yellow pages weren't
terribly helpful...
dAz
2011-07-18 00:55:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
when I first started in the trade some 40 odd years ago, there were at
least 6 general parts suppliers in Sydney, now there is one and there
stock is going down on the older stuff, one supplier that was taken over
in the 80s still had a vast array of pocket watch crystals, but he had
been around since the ark, don't know what happened to that, old watches
weren't the thing then, those new fangle quartz took over ;)
Forgot to ask: any recommendations on dealers of vintage and
pocket watches in the Sydney area? The yellow pages weren't
terribly helpful...
not really, only the fella at hunters hill, but he is pricey, I really
don't deal much in that side except as repairs
Alex W.
2011-07-18 11:24:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by dAz
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
when I first started in the trade some 40 odd years ago, there were at
least 6 general parts suppliers in Sydney, now there is one and there
stock is going down on the older stuff, one supplier that was taken over
in the 80s still had a vast array of pocket watch crystals, but he had
been around since the ark, don't know what happened to that, old watches
weren't the thing then, those new fangle quartz took over ;)
Forgot to ask: any recommendations on dealers of vintage and
pocket watches in the Sydney area? The yellow pages weren't
terribly helpful...
not really, only the fella at hunters hill, but he is pricey, I really
don't deal much in that side except as repairs
The fellow at Hunters Hill? Got a name?

I usually end up trawling the markets (like South Dowling Street)
and auction rooms when I'm downunder -- last time, Shapiro in
Queen Street had a Dent marine chronometer with 24-hour dial for
$3,500 that has a market value of £3,500 - 4,000 back in Blighty.
dAz
2011-07-19 00:39:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
not really, only the fella at hunters hill, but he is pricey, I really
don't deal much in that side except as repairs
The fellow at Hunters Hill? Got a name?
http://www.parkertime.com.au/
Alex W.
2011-07-19 07:59:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by dAz
Post by Alex W.
Post by dAz
not really, only the fella at hunters hill, but he is pricey, I really
don't deal much in that side except as repairs
The fellow at Hunters Hill? Got a name?
http://www.parkertime.com.au/
Got it, thanks.
Looking never costs anything....
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