Alpha Watches Dismantled

[j***@netzero.net]

See this link:
http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&th=636568&mid=1923533&rid=0&rev=&reveal=


For the price....wow.

[j***@netzero.net]

And the link to the Alpha website:
http://www.alpha-watch.com

Post by j***@netzero.net
http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&th=636568&mid=1923533&rid=0&rev=&reveal=
For the price....wow.

[Sammy]

Post by j***@netzero.net
http://www.alpha-watch.com

Post by j***@netzero.net
http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&th=636568&mid=1923533&rid=0&rev=&reveal=
For the price....wow.

Thanks for the page, I enjoyed that and it's contributed to my general
education and understanding of watches.

A thought I had though, is that movement isn't all: a Stainless Steel case
is preferable to a plated Brass one, isn't it? And quality of the screw
thead on the crown? I'm a novice......actually I'm not even a novice yet but
I reckon that there's loads of considerations apart from movement and
finesse (?).

If I send you a watch will you do a similar critique? I'll send something at
least a bit interesting if you will.

Incidentally, I have an Alpha Explorer One type/ style. I got it because I
like the case and dial style and can't afford the Rolex and because it's an
auto. I don't consider it to be a fake. IMO lots of watches refer to Rolex
design, including some more expensive ones; not just cheaper 'copies'.

Thanks again for your page. I'll look at that again.

Also, if you're interested in a critiquing another watch like you did with
the Alpha then I'd consider it a bargain to send you one and read your new
page: it's an offer. Oh, the watch is yours if you'll do it.

Regards
Sammy

[Revision]

.... movement isn't all: a Stainless Steel case
is preferable to a plated Brass one, isn't it?

The quality of the stainless case and bands on alpha is marvelous.

And quality of the screw
thead on the crown?

The screw is well made. Works better than my Sandoz diver.

I looked at an alpha through a loupe and the movement was pretty good.
The rotor was a little roungh, but looking past that, the plates looked
ok. The balance was very well made, comparable to Seiko 5.

[Anthony Fremont]

http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&th=636568&mid=1923533&rid=0&rev=&reveal=

Post by j***@netzero.net
For the price....wow.

Wow is right, look at all that dirt! Not just the big pile they point
out, but all the bits of dirt visible as soon as the back was removed.

I don't know allot about watches, but AFAIK rivets aren't the ideal
fastener to use.

[j***@netzero.net]

Perhaps the astounding thing is that the watch continued to function
well in spite of it! I wonder if the 'free' dirt was an anomoly. The
'surgeon' did not seemed to be bothered by it.

[Anthony Fremont]

Post by j***@netzero.net
Perhaps the astounding thing is that the watch continued to function
well in spite of it! I wonder if the 'free' dirt was an anomoly. The
'surgeon' did not seemed to be bothered by it.

He should have been very bothered by it. There is no room for dirt,
especially nothing like that. Dust particles are something that you
want to keep out. Gigantic chunks of dirt like that are simply
inexcusable.

[dAz]

Post by Anthony Fremont
I don't know allot about watches, but AFAIK rivets aren't the ideal
fastener to use.

rivets?, that's the normal method of attaching the heavy mass of the
auto weight to the centre part the ball race is fitted to, it's just the
other makers are neater about it ;)

[Anthony Fremont]

Post by dAz

Post by Anthony Fremont
I don't know allot about watches, but AFAIK rivets aren't the ideal
fastener to use.

rivets?, that's the normal method of attaching the heavy mass of the
auto weight to the centre part the ball race is fitted to, it's just the
other makers are neater about it ;)

Ok ok, but how about using rivets to hold the click springs? OTOH,
since the watch is likely to be irreparable by it's first service, maybe
they should have riveted/soldered the bridges down and saved a few more
cents. Maybe epoxy would be a good fastener. ;-)

I'd like to disassemble one of those movements just to see how well
things fit together, and how the screws feel while turning them. I'm
thinking I wouldn't be very impressed. ;-)

[dAz]

Post by Anthony Fremont
Ok ok, but how about using rivets to hold the click springs? OTOH,
since the watch is likely to be irreparable by it's first service, maybe
they should have riveted/soldered the bridges down and saved a few more
cents. Maybe epoxy would be a good fastener. ;-)

that bronzy one on that under dial plate, looks like its low stress, so
yeah......, if it breaks you replace the plate and the plate under that
has a wheel riveted to it ;)

there are plastic quartz movements that are riveted together, no repair
possible.

Post by Anthony Fremont
I'd like to disassemble one of those movements just to see how well
things fit together, and how the screws feel while turning them. I'm
thinking I wouldn't be very impressed. ;-)

well it would be good practice, if nothing else, get a couple so you
have spares :)

oh and the screws, yeah on the smaller ones take a bit of care, you can
cross thread them and the fact the slots are badly cut makes them easy
to chew up, you will notice the difference between this and a good Seiko
or swiss watch.

[Jack Forster]

Um, you get what you pay for I guess ;-) , it's incredibly filthy and the
fit and finish are atrocious, but, you know, it ticks. It would probably
run just fine for a few years if only it didn't have enough dirt in it to
start a decent sized herb garden ;-) .

Post by j***@netzero.net
http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&th=636568&mid=1923533&rid=0&rev=&reveal=
For the price....wow.

[Jack Denver]

For the same money or maybe a touch more you could have something with a
Miyota movement in it - if a Japanese plant manager allowed that much dirt
into one of his watches he would have to kill himself. Visit the bathroom of
a Chinese restaurant (if you must) and that of a Japanese and note the
difference. This is not a rap on the Chinese - they are just mork relaxed
about dirt - in Japan they have all these automatic toilet seats that wash
your butt because they are so obsessed about dirt - but this makes them good
competitors for the Swiss in watch making - you WANT someone anal to run a
watch factory.

Post by j***@netzero.net
http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&th=636568&mid=1923533&rid=0&rev=&reveal=
For the price....wow.

[John S.]

Post by j***@netzero.net
http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&th=636568&mid=1923533&rid=0&rev=&reveal=
For the price....wow.

Is that watch from Russia? I've seen watch movements and binoculars
from Russia with dirt, metal shavings and tiny metal curley-q's from
drilling all visible with no magnification.

That is inexcusable.

[Jack Denver]

China, I think. AFAIK, Alphas are fake Rolexes without the Rolex name on
them. In China (and elsewhere) they sell the exact same watches WITH the
fake Rolex dials as fake Rolexes. This was miles worse than a Vostok or a
Poljot. Keep in mind there are Chinese fakes of Russian watches as well
(these get sold in flea markets in Russia) - the really filthy thing that
you saw might have been one of those. Russian watches are usually not big
on finish but they don't come out looking this filthy.

Post by John S.

Post by j***@netzero.net
http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&th=636568&mid=1923533&rid=0&rev=&reveal=
For the price....wow.

Is that watch from Russia? I've seen watch movements and binoculars
from Russia with dirt, metal shavings and tiny metal curley-q's from
drilling all visible with no magnification.
That is inexcusable.

[Olaf Peuss]

Post by j***@netzero.net
http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&th=636568&mid=1923533&rid=0&rev=&reveal=
For the price....wow.

What's so "wow" about the price? It's $45 down the drain for a worthless
Rolex knock-off that is filthy like a rag inside, will probably be quite
short-lived (dirty movement, no gaskets) and never keep very exact time.

I suppose the only difference between Rolex fakes that "retail" for
$40-50 and this watch is the name on the dial.

Just my 2 cent.

Best regards,
OP

[Jack Forster]

I'd rather have a Seiko 5 for the same money. Or an honest G-Shock. Or 3
Timex Ironman watches. Or nothing at all ;-) .

Post by Olaf Peuss

Post by j***@netzero.net
http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&th=636568&mid=1923533&rid=0&rev=&reveal=
For the price....wow.

What's so "wow" about the price? It's $45 down the drain for a worthless
Rolex knock-off that is filthy like a rag inside, will probably be quite
short-lived (dirty movement, no gaskets) and never keep very exact time.
I suppose the only difference between Rolex fakes that "retail" for $40-50
and this watch is the name on the dial.
Just my 2 cent.
Best regards,
OP

[j***@netzero.net]

Is anybody throwing eggs at me (yet?). Please warn me so I can duck.
Interestingly, the Alpha's seem to have a loyal and happy following
(from what I've read on various forums) and they seem to keep time
pretty accurately even after a period of time. I suppose the dirt is in
place of lubrication. The fellow who dismantled it sure took alot of
time and effort. Now when he removes the dirt...COSC spechs might
follow. Let's hope the satisfied owners were lucky enough to have the
non dirt version. The assembler must wash his hands before returning to
the bench.
Eggs now.

[Anthony Fremont]

Post by j***@netzero.net
Is anybody throwing eggs at me (yet?). Please warn me so I can duck.
Interestingly, the Alpha's seem to have a loyal and happy following
(from what I've read on various forums) and they seem to keep time
pretty accurately even after a period of time.

You really need to define "pretty accurately" and "period of time". The
Omega Seamaster 600 I just bought off e-bay keeps time to well within 5
seconds per day if I wear it continuously. Not bad for a 40 year old
watch IMO. BTW, my screwheads are in better shape than the alpha's and
it's been apart before. ;-)

Post by j***@netzero.net
I suppose the dirt is in place of lubrication.

It certainly will be. The "surgeon" will be lucky if that watch is
still running in two years. From what I gathered, the surgeon didn't
clean it. He just disassembled and reassembled it.

Post by j***@netzero.net
The fellow who dismantled it sure took alot of time and effort.

I'm not sure what you mean, but I couldn't help but chuckle a bit at his
fear of removing the pallet. If I were him, I'd be much more afraid of
what I might find hiding/growing under there.

Post by j***@netzero.net
Now when he removes the dirt...COSC spechs might follow.

Sorry, but I really have to chuckle now. ;-) Take another look at that
balance assembly. Like I said, I don't know much about watches. But
I'd venture to guess that it takes a bit better made balance wheel,
spring and regulator than that to acheive any real accuracy.

Post by j***@netzero.net
Let's hope the satisfied owners were lucky enough to have the
non dirt version.

It's fairly safe to assume that they, probably, all look like the
surgeon's watch.

Post by j***@netzero.net
The assembler must wash his hands before returning to
the bench.
Eggs now.

[dAz]

Post by j***@netzero.net
Is anybody throwing eggs at me (yet?). Please warn me so I can duck.
Interestingly, the Alpha's seem to have a loyal and happy following
(from what I've read on various forums)

ignorance is bliss I suppose

Post by j***@netzero.net
and they seem to keep time
pretty accurately even after a period of time.

well if the Seiko is the Toyota of the watch world, the movement in the
Alpha is a Trabant, while the watch will keep time, because of the poor
quality the timing consistency is going to be all over the place.

Post by j***@netzero.net
I suppose the dirt is in
place of lubrication. The fellow who dismantled it sure took alot of
time and effort. Now when he removes the dirt...COSC spechs might
follow. Let's hope the satisfied owners were lucky enough to have the
non dirt version. The assembler must wash his hands before returning to
the bench.
Eggs now.

well he gives me the impression he needs more experience before tackling
a watch like that, he really didn't pull it down properly, it would take
me 5-10mins at the most to strip that watch down to place in the
cleaning baskets, maybe 20mins to reassemble.

he should have cleaned the watch while he had it apart, really no point
in reassembling it in that condition because as I said in the other post
some of that dirt is not dirt, its metal dust ground off dry rubbing
parts, the auto will grind itself out in a year or two, not good.

COSC specs, heh! not in your wildest dreams.

[Olaf Peuss]

Post by dAz
well he gives me the impression he needs more experience before tackling
a watch like that, he really didn't pull it down properly, it would take
me 5-10mins at the most to strip that watch down to place in the
cleaning baskets, maybe 20mins to reassemble.

And what that be good for? Instead of dirty bad watch, you'll have a
clean bad watch. Does a Trabant become a better car by having it washed?

Post by dAz
he should have cleaned the watch while he had it apart, really no point
in reassembling it in that condition because as I said in the other post
some of that dirt is not dirt, its metal dust ground off dry rubbing
parts, the auto will grind itself out in a year or two, not good.

Looking at the finish of the parts, even without the metal dust, the
movement parts don't look very long for this world.

Best regards,
OP

[Frank Adam]

Post by Olaf Peuss

Post by dAz
well he gives me the impression he needs more experience before tackling
a watch like that, he really didn't pull it down properly, it would take
me 5-10mins at the most to strip that watch down to place in the
cleaning baskets, maybe 20mins to reassemble.

And what that be good for? Instead of dirty bad watch, you'll have a
clean bad watch. Does a Trabant become a better car by having it washed?

Bad ? In what way can you tell that the watch is bad ?
Is it worse than what Oris spewed out many years ago, or the BFGs that
were stuck into quite a few cheap Swiss brands ?

What makes a watch bad is, when it can not be made to keep time, when
the wheels are not aligned properly so wear would occure, when the
operation of the keyless is coarse, etc.. Until that watch comes
across your bench, you can not make that assumption.
Just becuase it looks crap, does not warrant that it is. Most Russian
watches looked like crap, yet some of them were quite well made and i
still get the occasional 40 year old example. Early ST96 and 69
calibers did not look a hell of a lot better, but they were, pound for
pound, one of the best manual movements of all time.

Post by Olaf Peuss

Post by dAz
he should have cleaned the watch while he had it apart, really no point
in reassembling it in that condition because as I said in the other post
some of that dirt is not dirt, its metal dust ground off dry rubbing
parts, the auto will grind itself out in a year or two, not good.

Looking at the finish of the parts, even without the metal dust, the
movement parts don't look very long for this world.

Again.. if it was shiny, would it last longer ? :)
The metal(if it is metal) dust is likely off the case back. It is a
common cause of stoppage (especially on quartz models), where a piece
of the thread or case comes off and gets lodged in the works and it's
also common that you can feel the grind as you undo and tighten the
back.. Gives me the shivers every time i close them up, because it is
like betting on a blind.

[j***@netzero.net]

This is a very very interesting thread. When I looked at other
forums...PMWF...for one...many (not all) Alpha owners were quite happy
with the watch's performance.

[Mike]

Post by j***@netzero.net
This is a very very interesting thread. When I looked at other
forums...PMWF...for one...many (not all) Alpha owners were quite happy
with the watch's performance.

True - I have a couple of them, and they work just fine. They keep good
time and look pretty decent. No, they're not JLC or even Rolex, but for
the money they're hard to beat!

Mike

[Anthony Fremont]

Post by Mike

Post by j***@netzero.net
This is a very very interesting thread. When I looked at other
forums...PMWF...for one...many (not all) Alpha owners were quite happy
with the watch's performance.

True - I have a couple of them, and they work just fine. They keep good
time and look pretty decent. No, they're not JLC or even Rolex, but for
the money they're hard to beat!

Can you quantify that in terms of seconds per day?

[Revision]

Post by j***@netzero.net
Alpha owners were quite happy
with the watch's performance.

http://www.pmwf.com/cgi-bin/Forum/webbbs_config.cgi?noframes;read=961261

[Revision]

"Frank Adam"

Post by Frank Adam
Bad ? In what way can you tell that the watch
is bad ? Is it worse than what Oris spewed out
many years ago, or the BFGs that were stuck into
quite a few cheap Swiss brands ?

I agree. Both of my alpha explorers run at a consistent +5 out of the
box. And I subscribe to a rule such that the reliability of a watch is
inversely related to the price. The alphas will be running long after
yer Co-Axial packs it in.

[Revision]

http://www.pmwf.com/cgi-bin/Forum/webbbs_config.cgi?noframes;read=961261

Two alphas arrived Wednesday

[Jack Denver]

I really seriously doubt this. The Coax is a fine watch and was designed
specifically with long service intervals in mind (low friction escapement).
The Alpha has more dirt in one watch than Omega puts in a month's worth of
coax.


What is true is that some very inexpensive watches (Russian, Seiko) run with
tractor like persistance while some very fine calibers (especially the
"ultra-thin") movements by the likes of Piaget are rather delicate - the
amount of dirt found inside the Alpha would grind such movement to a halt
immediately. High strung cars like Ferrari also need more service and
tolerate less abuse than humble Hondas.

But the cheap and poorly made Chinese movement inside the Alpha is extremely
unlikely to have a long life. Report back on your Alphas in a year or two
when they have ground themselves into nothingness. As someone else pointed
out, a lot of what apppeared as "dirt" in the Alpha was really ground up
metal from the watch eating itself. The Alpha is more like a Yugo than a
Honda (or like what I fear the earliest versions of the Chinese cars on our
streets will be like).

Post by Revision
"Frank Adam"

Post by Frank Adam
Bad ? In what way can you tell that the watch
is bad ? Is it worse than what Oris spewed out
many years ago, or the BFGs that were stuck into
quite a few cheap Swiss brands ?

I agree. Both of my alpha explorers run at a consistent +5 out of the
box. And I subscribe to a rule such that the reliability of a watch is
inversely related to the price. The alphas will be running long after
yer Co-Axial packs it in.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Frank Adam]

On Sat, 3 Jun 2006 13:16:35 -0400, "Jack Denver"

Post by Jack Denver
I really seriously doubt this. The Coax is a fine watch and was designed
specifically with long service intervals in mind (low friction escapement).
The Alpha has more dirt in one watch than Omega puts in a month's worth of
coax.

Low friction escapement makes a watch go longer between services ?
So the oil is briefed about this and told not to deteriorate at it's
usual rate ? Amazing technology. ;-)

Post by Jack Denver
What is true is that some very inexpensive watches (Russian, Seiko) run with
tractor like persistance while some very fine calibers (especially the
"ultra-thin") movements by the likes of Piaget are rather delicate - the
amount of dirt found inside the Alpha would grind such movement to a halt
immediately. High strung cars like Ferrari also need more service and
tolerate less abuse than humble Hondas.

Number of teeth per diameter and spring strength is what determines
how finicky a watch will be with regards to dust.

High strung cars like Ferrari are not made to be used every day. Not
unlike a $100,000 diamond laced gold watch.
Other equally high strung cars which will do pretty much everything a
Ferrari can and more(ie: the old Porsche 959) can be used daily and
services will still be about as frequent as on your family Chevy.

Post by Jack Denver
But the cheap and poorly made Chinese movement inside the Alpha is extremely
unlikely to have a long life. Report back on your Alphas in a year or two
when they have ground themselves into nothingness. As someone else pointed
out, a lot of what apppeared as "dirt" in the Alpha was really ground up
metal from the watch eating itself. The Alpha is more like a Yugo than a

LOL.
I can take the crown wheel off 99% of the watches and i will find
similar dust if the winder is used frequently. There is a valid reason
for that and it is quite common especially during the first service of
a new watch. In autos of any kind with reversers, you place a large
amount of stress on the crown wheel when hand winding it, because
you're not only winding the ratchet wheel and the spring, but also
pushing through two tight reversing wheels and this is all driven by
the winding pinion at 90 degrees to the crown wheel. Thus the crown
wheel will eat into the screw and the plate and vice versa. There is
no remedy for this.

One of the easiest 'gotchas' in watchmaking is to take the crown wheel
off after the service. This, because even when the watch goes through
an utrasonic cleaner, some rubbish can still be left under the crown
wheel if the watchmaker did not remove it. Some use this little trick
to determine if a watchmaker is thorough enough in his work.

As for the rest of the "metal dust", did you not find it interesting
that there is dust on the top of the movement, but not under the auto
plate ? Yet... there is dust on the *bottom* of the single shot of the
reversing wheel(where it has been turned over) but there was not a
speck on the top of it ??
And that on some shots the same dust is visible in some quantity on
the bench mat ???
If that much dust was produced by the watch by "eating itself", think
about how much drag there would have to be on the train and auto to
produce that. If it came from the train, there is no way it could
perform, and there is no way the auto could do it's job anywhere near
the norm if it came from those gears. Yet, reportedly, it does ok.

Conclusion:
Most of the dust, with the exception of the wear-in metal dust under
the crown wheel, is off the guy's bench, lamp, clothes, dandruff,
whatever. Stirred up probably while he was setting up the camera for
each shot.

[Jack Denver]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Adam" <***@notthis.optushome.com.au>
Newsgroups: alt.horology
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: Alpha Watches Dismantled

Post by Frank Adam
On Sat, 3 Jun 2006 13:16:35 -0400, "Jack Denver"

Post by Jack Denver
I really seriously doubt this. The Coax is a fine watch and was designed
specifically with long service intervals in mind (low friction
escapement).
The Alpha has more dirt in one watch than Omega puts in a month's worth of
coax.

Low friction escapement makes a watch go longer between services ?
So the oil is briefed about this and told not to deteriorate at it's
usual rate ? Amazing technology. ;-)

Ooh, sarcastic aren't we. See this article:

http://www.europastar.com/europastar/watch_tech/nicolet8.jsp


Obviously the new escapement can't prevent increased friction elsewhere in
the train, but the pallets are a major source of friction and watchmakers
from the beginning of the art have looked for escapements that require no
lubrication as a holy grail.

Post by Frank Adam

Post by Jack Denver
What is true is that some very inexpensive watches (Russian, Seiko) run with
tractor like persistance while some very fine calibers (especially the
"ultra-thin") movements by the likes of Piaget are rather delicate - the
amount of dirt found inside the Alpha would grind such movement to a halt
immediately. High strung cars like Ferrari also need more service and
tolerate less abuse than humble Hondas.

Number of teeth per diameter and spring strength is what determines
how finicky a watch will be with regards to dust.

Yes, which is why thicker calibers like this one can torque thru a lot of
dirt.
snip

Post by Frank Adam
Most of the dust, with the exception of the wear-in metal dust under
the crown wheel, is off the guy's bench, lamp, clothes, dandruff,
whatever. Stirred up probably while he was setting up the camera for
each shot.

Well, it's a good theory - I'm still not buying. Maybe some of the dirt
shown is from the bench and due to "normal" rubbish from the crown wheel but
I had the feeling that it was more than that and that the factory had
contributed some of its own. It certainly doesn't look like a lot of care
was taken, even beyond the crudeness one sees in a Russian watch. The
"complication" module for the GMT hand in particular looked like a hack job
in terms of its engineering. Dirt on the bench can't explain those screw
heads.
Loading Image...

Or the "finish" on the movement plates:
Loading Image...

that looks like someone did a few strokes with 40 grit sandpaper.

I understand that for $40 you can't expect black polish and anglage like on
a Patek. But take something like a Miyota movement that has a nice uniform
sand blasted finish - that's entirely doable in this price range, but the
manufacturer has to have some self respect first - knowing that your name in
on the movement and reflects on your reputation. That these movements are
completely unmarked says a lot about how much pride their manufacturer has.
Notice BTW that a lot more care was taken on the outside where you the
customer can see it - another sign of shoddy work is that you try get away
with as much as you think you can get away with.


Is this really a movement you would want to own or service?

Post by Frank Adam
--
Regards, Frank

[Frank Adam]

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:40:08 -0400, "Jack Denver"

Post by Jack Denver

Post by Frank Adam
Low friction escapement makes a watch go longer between services ?
So the oil is briefed about this and told not to deteriorate at it's
usual rate ? Amazing technology. ;-)

http://www.europastar.com/europastar/watch_tech/nicolet8.jsp
Obviously the new escapement can't prevent increased friction elsewhere in
the train, but the pallets are a major source of friction and watchmakers
from the beginning of the art have looked for escapements that require no
lubrication as a holy grail.

Well, i don't really need a refresher on escapements and it is still
irrelevant.
Basically, it's like saying that by replacing the mechanical points on
a car with the halls effect sensor will have increased engine
maintainance intervals. Rubbish, it increased the efficiency of the
spark by providing even gapping at all times and this was due to doing
away with the bakelite bit bouncing off the cam and wearing down.
Just as the coax has incresed the *efficiency* of the escapement by
reducing friction and providing a more stable pulse, it did not
increase service intervals.

Post by Jack Denver

Post by Frank Adam
Most of the dust, with the exception of the wear-in metal dust under
the crown wheel, is off the guy's bench, lamp, clothes, dandruff,
whatever. Stirred up probably while he was setting up the camera for
each shot.

Well, it's a good theory - I'm still not buying. Maybe some of the dirt
shown is from the bench and due to "normal" rubbish from the crown wheel but
I had the feeling that it was more than that and that the factory had
contributed some of its own. It certainly doesn't look like a lot of care
was taken, even beyond the crudeness one sees in a Russian watch. The
"complication" module for the GMT hand in particular looked like a hack job
in terms of its engineering. Dirt on the bench can't explain those screw
heads.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b139/12345watchdude/IMG_1553.jpg

That is some form of plating(zinc?), just not machined off. you can
find those in quite a few quartz watches, where they are sometimes
finished off a bit better, but that does not make the screw any
better..

Post by Jack Denver
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b139/12345watchdude/IMG_1556.jpg

Again, i don't see bits hanging off it, no over stamps, nothing that
could break off. It's machined off, then brushed. A'la Seiko and ETA.
Admittedly, ETA especially will put a bit more effort into the top
plate.

Post by Jack Denver
that looks like someone did a few strokes with 40 grit sandpaper.

That is a normal under dial finish for most run of the mill watches
from both Japan and Switzerland.

Post by Jack Denver
I understand that for $40 you can't expect black polish and anglage like on
a Patek. But take something like a Miyota movement that has a nice uniform
sand blasted finish - that's entirely doable in this price range, but the
manufacturer has to have some self respect first - knowing that your name in
on the movement and reflects on your reputation. That these movements are

C'mon, so if the movement was shiny it would give the factory more
respect ?
As much as i like the Miyota auto it is not a well machined movement.
http://www.rolexreferencepage.com/miyota/miyota1.html
Take a good look around where the barrel sits and other curvatures, it
looks like they were chiseled out.

Post by Jack Denver
Notice BTW that a lot more care was taken on the outside where you the
customer can see it - another sign of shoddy work is that you try get away
with as much as you think you can get away with.

You mean like putting an ETA 955 into a nice shiny case, putting a
nice dial with TAG written on it and sell it for 2,000 bucks ? :)
Different strokes, same agenda.

Post by Jack Denver
Is this really a movement you would want to own or service?

Well, as i've said, it looks like a solid watch, with all the bits in
the right places and in the right dimensions(except for the reversers
which seem a bit small). That is all that counts for me. Whether they
make it shiny makes no difference as far as the merit of the watch is
concerned. A junk is a junk whether you polish it up or not and a well
designed watch is a good watch, even if it's left matt and was indeed
made by a chisel.

As for how happy i'll be repairing one, it'll be about as exciting as
doing any standard watch. Not at all. It's just another job.
The only thing that strikes my eye as bad, is the date finger, which
is going to break on every sneeze.And i do wonder if parts will be
available at all, as usually we can't get anything here for Chinese
movements.

[Jack Denver]

Admittedly the casting /machining on the Miyota could be better. But this is
cosmetic only - functionally speaking the movement does its job and does not
introduce metal shavings into the watch. Notice that there is less
dirt/metal dust in the nonrunning, several year old Miyota than there was in
a virtually new Alpha.

Post by Frank Adam
On Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:40:08 -0400, "Jack Denver"

Post by Jack Denver

Post by Frank Adam
Low friction escapement makes a watch go longer between services ?
So the oil is briefed about this and told not to deteriorate at it's
usual rate ? Amazing technology. ;-)

http://www.europastar.com/europastar/watch_tech/nicolet8.jsp
Obviously the new escapement can't prevent increased friction elsewhere in
the train, but the pallets are a major source of friction and watchmakers
from the beginning of the art have looked for escapements that require no
lubrication as a holy grail.

Well, i don't really need a refresher on escapements and it is still
irrelevant.
Basically, it's like saying that by replacing the mechanical points on
a car with the halls effect sensor will have increased engine
maintainance intervals. Rubbish, it increased the efficiency of the
spark by providing even gapping at all times and this was due to doing
away with the bakelite bit bouncing off the cam and wearing down.
Just as the coax has incresed the *efficiency* of the escapement by
reducing friction and providing a more stable pulse, it did not
increase service intervals.

Post by Jack Denver

Post by Frank Adam
Most of the dust, with the exception of the wear-in metal dust under
the crown wheel, is off the guy's bench, lamp, clothes, dandruff,
whatever. Stirred up probably while he was setting up the camera for
each shot.

Well, it's a good theory - I'm still not buying. Maybe some of the dirt
shown is from the bench and due to "normal" rubbish from the crown wheel but
I had the feeling that it was more than that and that the factory had
contributed some of its own. It certainly doesn't look like a lot of care
was taken, even beyond the crudeness one sees in a Russian watch. The
"complication" module for the GMT hand in particular looked like a hack job
in terms of its engineering. Dirt on the bench can't explain those screw
heads.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b139/12345watchdude/IMG_1553.jpg

That is some form of plating(zinc?), just not machined off. you can
find those in quite a few quartz watches, where they are sometimes
finished off a bit better, but that does not make the screw any
better..

Post by Jack Denver
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b139/12345watchdude/IMG_1556.jpg

Again, i don't see bits hanging off it, no over stamps, nothing that
could break off. It's machined off, then brushed. A'la Seiko and ETA.
Admittedly, ETA especially will put a bit more effort into the top
plate.

Post by Jack Denver
that looks like someone did a few strokes with 40 grit sandpaper.

That is a normal under dial finish for most run of the mill watches
from both Japan and Switzerland.

Post by Jack Denver
I understand that for $40 you can't expect black polish and anglage like on
a Patek. But take something like a Miyota movement that has a nice uniform
sand blasted finish - that's entirely doable in this price range, but the
manufacturer has to have some self respect first - knowing that your name in
on the movement and reflects on your reputation. That these movements are

C'mon, so if the movement was shiny it would give the factory more
respect ?
As much as i like the Miyota auto it is not a well machined movement.
http://www.rolexreferencepage.com/miyota/miyota1.html
Take a good look around where the barrel sits and other curvatures, it
looks like they were chiseled out.

Post by Jack Denver
Notice BTW that a lot more care was taken on the outside where you the
customer can see it - another sign of shoddy work is that you try get away
with as much as you think you can get away with.

You mean like putting an ETA 955 into a nice shiny case, putting a
nice dial with TAG written on it and sell it for 2,000 bucks ? :)
Different strokes, same agenda.

Post by Jack Denver
Is this really a movement you would want to own or service?

Well, as i've said, it looks like a solid watch, with all the bits in
the right places and in the right dimensions(except for the reversers
which seem a bit small). That is all that counts for me. Whether they
make it shiny makes no difference as far as the merit of the watch is
concerned. A junk is a junk whether you polish it up or not and a well
designed watch is a good watch, even if it's left matt and was indeed
made by a chisel.
As for how happy i'll be repairing one, it'll be about as exciting as
doing any standard watch. Not at all. It's just another job.
The only thing that strikes my eye as bad, is the date finger, which
is going to break on every sneeze.And i do wonder if parts will be
available at all, as usually we can't get anything here for Chinese
movements.
--
Regards, Frank

[Anthony Fremont]

Post by Frank Adam

Post by Jack Denver
I really seriously doubt this. The Coax is a fine watch and was designed
specifically with long service intervals in mind (low friction escapement).
The Alpha has more dirt in one watch than Omega puts in a month's worth of
coax.

Low friction escapement makes a watch go longer between services ?

Didn't Omega raise the service interval from five to ten years? This
might be a really stupid question, but isn't it a key point that the
coaxial escapement doesn't require oil on the jewel surfaces?

Post by Frank Adam
So the oil is briefed about this and told not to deteriorate at it's
usual rate ? Amazing technology. ;-)

I don't claim to be a watchmaker, but I do know that oils in general
have improved drastically in the last 60 years. It doesn't seem
unreasonable that organic oils which lasted for five years, have since
been bettered by synthetics that will go much longer without gumming up.

My motorcycle sure appreciates the difference between "dino" oil and
synthetic. I wonder if Royal Purple makes any watch/clock oils. ;-)

<snip for brevity>

Post by Frank Adam
Most of the dust, with the exception of the wear-in metal dust under
the crown wheel, is off the guy's bench, lamp, clothes, dandruff,
whatever. Stirred up probably while he was setting up the camera for
each shot.

I can't wait to find one of these in a pawn/thrift shop to perform my
own autopsy. No offense intended towards anyone but, with issues like
this, I like to see for myself when possible.

[Frank Adam]

On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:48:59 -0500, "Anthony Fremont"

Post by Anthony Fremont

Post by Frank Adam
Low friction escapement makes a watch go longer between services ?

Didn't Omega raise the service interval from five to ten years? This
might be a really stupid question, but isn't it a key point that the
coaxial escapement doesn't require oil on the jewel surfaces?

No, because the escape wheel pivot still requires oil and most watches
that come in stopped, will be due to a frozen/dry pivot or some dirt
in the train. What Omega did with the coax, is that they've improved
the time keeping of the watch between services, since the escapement
will function well with even reduced power from the train.
the 5 year has always been the recommendation because of the oil life.
In fact, Omega is not even one of those rare models which wear at the
pallet stones, they wear in the train and this is usually due to that
fact that well designed watches can operate for 10+ years, so
customers who don't get flustered by their watch starting to drop or
gain a few seconds a day(a clear sign of problem) will not bring it in
for a service and let it run dry for another 5+ years or more.

Materials and finishing processes of parts have improved so much that
the 10 years now can be valid, especially in quality time pieces, but
i am still sceptical about the oil condition at around 10 years.

Another thing to keep in mind is, that Omega expects most of the
coaxes to go back to them for service, because they are a somewhat
finnicky thing if anything goes out of alignment and because of that,
watchmakers might think twice doing them. As such, worn parts will not
be a problem, since they do change those routinely and all inclusive
in their price.

Post by Anthony Fremont

Post by Frank Adam
So the oil is briefed about this and told not to deteriorate at it's
usual rate ? Amazing technology. ;-)

I don't claim to be a watchmaker, but I do know that oils in general
have improved drastically in the last 60 years. It doesn't seem
unreasonable that organic oils which lasted for five years, have since
been bettered by synthetics that will go much longer without gumming up.

Yes, synthetic oils have increased oil life by a large margin.

Post by Anthony Fremont
My motorcycle sure appreciates the difference between "dino" oil and
synthetic. I wonder if Royal Purple makes any watch/clock oils. ;-)

Jeeezus man, how can you be using motor oil with "purple" in it's
name ?! ;-p
Used to be Castrol GTX when i was real macho with my really cool matt
black muscle car, but now it's Mobil 1 for the tame little family
sedan. Tastes much much worse than the GTX did though. :)

Post by Anthony Fremont
<snip for brevity>

Post by Frank Adam
Most of the dust, with the exception of the wear-in metal dust under
the crown wheel, is off the guy's bench, lamp, clothes, dandruff,
whatever. Stirred up probably while he was setting up the camera for
each shot.

I can't wait to find one of these in a pawn/thrift shop to perform my
own autopsy. No offense intended towards anyone but, with issues like
this, I like to see for myself when possible.

Indeed. The reason i've made my counter statement is that i don't like
pre judgements made on things, based on just a few pictures and
without any reasonable proof, be it for or against. Even better,
seeing the item in question personally will be the final proof.

If tomorrow i get one in and i do find that it's a piece of shit, rest
assured i won't have any problems reporting it right back here, but
until then, with all my experience thrown in, i can not say that it's
a bad watch or a good watch.
I can certainly assure the AH community that it *is* a watch. :-)

[dAz]

Post by Frank Adam
On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:48:59 -0500, "Anthony Fremont"

Post by Anthony Fremont
My motorcycle sure appreciates the difference between "dino" oil and
synthetic. I wonder if Royal Purple makes any watch/clock oils. ;-)

Jeeezus man, how can you be using motor oil with "purple" in it's
name ?! ;-p

isn't purple the new black? whatever the hell that means.

Post by Frank Adam
Used to be Castrol GTX when i was real macho with my really cool matt
black muscle car, but now it's Mobil 1 for the tame little family
sedan. Tastes much much worse than the GTX did though. :)

hmmm, keep your mouth closed next time you pull the sump plug :)

I am told brake fluid is far worst as my mate told me, he was under the
car while I was pushing the brake cylinder back in so I could fit new
pads, forgot about the reservoir backing up and over flowing :)

[Frank Adam]

Post by dAz

Post by Frank Adam
On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:48:59 -0500, "Anthony Fremont"

Post by Anthony Fremont
My motorcycle sure appreciates the difference between "dino" oil and
synthetic. I wonder if Royal Purple makes any watch/clock oils. ;-)

Jeeezus man, how can you be using motor oil with "purple" in it's
name ?! ;-p

isn't purple the new black? whatever the hell that means.

You too ? OMG, what's happening to us !?
I must admit, some weeks ago my concentration lapsed for a second and
my hairdresser slapped some gel into my hair and it was actually ok.
BUT! I'm still displaying a nervous reaction even if someone asks me
if i want Jelly Beans.

Post by dAz

Post by Frank Adam
Used to be Castrol GTX when i was real macho with my really cool matt
black muscle car, but now it's Mobil 1 for the tame little family
sedan. Tastes much much worse than the GTX did though. :)

hmmm, keep your mouth closed next time you pull the sump plug :)
I am told brake fluid is far worst as my mate told me, he was under the
car while I was pushing the brake cylinder back in so I could fit new
pads, forgot about the reservoir backing up and over flowing :)

Brake fluid is bad. It tastes as it feels, kinda dries and numbs your
lips, tongue everything inside your mouth. Nothing beats transmission
fluid for pure puke inducing taste though.

Now how in the hell do i know all this you all ask ? :)
When i was moonlighting as a mechanic, we didn't always have the time
or, at times working on the road, even the facilities to wash our
hands while having a quick snack. Oily and greasy hands didn't bother
us at all. I still can have a hand full of oil and pick up a sandwitch
the missus made for me and as a bonus, it totally grosses her out. :)
Mmm oil. <Insert Tim The Toolman grunt right here>

[Anthony Fremont]

Post by Frank Adam
On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:48:59 -0500, "Anthony Fremont"

Post by Anthony Fremont

Post by Frank Adam
Low friction escapement makes a watch go longer between services ?

Didn't Omega raise the service interval from five to ten years? This
might be a really stupid question, but isn't it a key point that the
coaxial escapement doesn't require oil on the jewel surfaces?

No, because the escape wheel pivot still requires oil and most watches
that come in stopped, will be due to a frozen/dry pivot or some dirt
in the train. What Omega did with the coax, is that they've improved
the time keeping of the watch between services, since the escapement
will function well with even reduced power from the train.
the 5 year has always been the recommendation because of the oil life.
In fact, Omega is not even one of those rare models which wear at the
pallet stones, they wear in the train and this is usually due to that
fact that well designed watches can operate for 10+ years, so
customers who don't get flustered by their watch starting to drop or
gain a few seconds a day(a clear sign of problem) will not bring it in
for a service and let it run dry for another 5+ years or more.

I feed on snippets of info like this. Please feel free to elaborate
like this at any time, it's appreciated.

Post by Frank Adam
Materials and finishing processes of parts have improved so much that
the 10 years now can be valid, especially in quality time pieces, but
i am still sceptical about the oil condition at around 10 years.

Synthetics art the way man, stop being so "old school". (;-)

Post by Frank Adam
Another thing to keep in mind is, that Omega expects most of the
coaxes to go back to them for service, because they are a somewhat
finnicky thing if anything goes out of alignment and because of that,
watchmakers might think twice doing them. As such, worn parts will not
be a problem, since they do change those routinely and all inclusive
in their price.

Now that makes sense. It's sort of a planned obsolescence kind of
thing. Something like auto manufacturers suggesting 7500 miles for the
oil change interval, yet I can think of only one oil company touting an
oil with that recommendation.

Post by Frank Adam

Post by Anthony Fremont

Post by Frank Adam
So the oil is briefed about this and told not to deteriorate at it's
usual rate ? Amazing technology. ;-)

I don't claim to be a watchmaker, but I do know that oils in general
have improved drastically in the last 60 years. It doesn't seem
unreasonable that organic oils which lasted for five years, have since
been bettered by synthetics that will go much longer without gumming up.

Yes, synthetic oils have increased oil life by a large margin.

Post by Anthony Fremont
My motorcycle sure appreciates the difference between "dino" oil and
synthetic. I wonder if Royal Purple makes any watch/clock oils. ;-)

Jeeezus man, how can you be using motor oil with "purple" in it's
name ?! ;-p

I'll tell you how. It works, and it works well. Next to Red Line
racing oil, it's probably the finest stuff in the world. Unlike with
Red Line, you can find Royal Purple on the shelf if you look for it. It
really is purple too. There's some real truth in advertising on that
one.

Post by Frank Adam
Used to be Castrol GTX when i was real macho with my really cool matt
black muscle car, but now it's Mobil 1 for the tame little family
sedan. Tastes much much worse than the GTX did though. :)

I used Mobil 1 for a while, but my engine made too much internal noise
with it. I'm not saying that it didn't lube as well as the Royal
Purple, just that the internally generated sounds were louder. In fact,
I'm reasonably sure that as far as engine wear go, there would be no
distinguishable difference between the two synthetics. So, like most
people, I made my choice by completely arbitrary and unscientific
methods. It's quieter, and I happen to find the color irresistable.
;-) I pick synthetic oil purely for technical reasons. My engine is
air cooled (actually oil cooled, but most people don't get it),
synthetic has a much higher smoke temp. It also makes the engine run
cooler (presumably from lower friction, but who is to say that it
doesn't transfer heat faster to the engine casing).

Post by Frank Adam

Post by Anthony Fremont
<snip for brevity>

Post by Frank Adam
Most of the dust, with the exception of the wear-in metal dust under
the crown wheel, is off the guy's bench, lamp, clothes, dandruff,
whatever. Stirred up probably while he was setting up the camera for
each shot.

I can't wait to find one of these in a pawn/thrift shop to perform my
own autopsy. No offense intended towards anyone but, with issues like
this, I like to see for myself when possible.

Indeed. The reason i've made my counter statement is that i don't like
pre judgements made on things, based on just a few pictures and
without any reasonable proof, be it for or against. Even better,
seeing the item in question personally will be the final proof.

I'll agree that judging from a sample of one is risky at best. However,
if I should randomly take one apart and find similar levels of filth,
I'll probably put allot of credence in that. No matter what, even the
oldest and cheapest watches that I've taken apart have higher levels of
finish quality on the faces of the wheels.

As dAz pointed out, there seems to be a missing tooth on an intermediate
wheel. The OP apparently didn't find it laying around anywhere inside.
Maybe the wheel was assembled into the watch with a broken tooth and it
resulted in all the metal dust and wear? No matter how you slice that,
it seems to bring their quality control into question. Unless you find
that kind of thing frequently when working on Swiss watches? :-?

Post by Frank Adam
If tomorrow i get one in and i do find that it's a piece of shit, rest
assured i won't have any problems reporting it right back here, but
until then, with all my experience thrown in, i can not say that it's
a bad watch or a good watch.
I can certainly assure the AH community that it *is* a watch. :-)

Yes unfortunately the requirements, for many items deemed as watches,
seem to be quite minimal. ;-)

[Frank Adam]

On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 20:25:04 -0500, "Anthony Fremont"

Post by Anthony Fremont

Post by Frank Adam
Materials and finishing processes of parts have improved so much that
the 10 years now can be valid, especially in quality time pieces, but
i am still sceptical about the oil condition at around 10 years.

Synthetics art the way man, stop being so "old school". (;-)

I do use synthetics, but shhhh, i don't want the group to find out
that i use fake oils. ;-)

Post by Anthony Fremont

Post by Frank Adam
Another thing to keep in mind is, that Omega expects most of the
coaxes to go back to them for service, because they are a somewhat
finnicky thing if anything goes out of alignment and because of that,
watchmakers might think twice doing them. As such, worn parts will not
be a problem, since they do change those routinely and all inclusive
in their price.

Now that makes sense. It's sort of a planned obsolescence kind of
thing. Something like auto manufacturers suggesting 7500 miles for the
oil change interval, yet I can think of only one oil company touting an
oil with that recommendation.

Pretty much, but it's also a good marketing ploy, whereby making a
watch more difficult to set up, they themselves get the work, by the
watchmakers deafulting. As opposed to what Rolex did, by simply
refusing parts on their same old and simple movements, it still leaves
us with the decision whether we want to tackle the repair or not.

Common sense dictates to send the coaxes to Omega, but first, i do
want to get up close and personal with one, strip it slowly and awe at
it's bits, before handling them with all due care until i'm ready to
make it all purrrrr..
No doubt Ziggy Freud just sat up in his coffin and yelled "next!". ;-)

Post by Anthony Fremont

Post by Frank Adam
Indeed. The reason i've made my counter statement is that i don't like
pre judgements made on things, based on just a few pictures and
without any reasonable proof, be it for or against. Even better,
seeing the item in question personally will be the final proof.

I'll agree that judging from a sample of one is risky at best. However,
if I should randomly take one apart and find similar levels of filth,
I'll probably put allot of credence in that. No matter what, even the
oldest and cheapest watches that I've taken apart have higher levels of
finish quality on the faces of the wheels.

I've done a fake Rolex about a year ago with a Chinese auto in it. It
was a ladies one, about 8-9 lignes.
It looked like crap, but it was in surprisingly good order inside.
Nothing was worn and although they did go a bit whacky with the number
of wheels in the auto and had a weird as buggery date system, it did
all work very well.
In any other context i have and still would call it a POS too, but if
we are talking about it in a mechanical context, i saw nothing(apart
from what i've mentioned) to fault that movement on. The watch was 6
years old according to the customer, serviced it and haven't seen it
since. Now that one i can guarantee is not a bad movement, although it
does look horrible. So i guess you can see why i hesitate to make a
definitive negative forecast about this one.
I brought up the BFG 866 before. It is butt ugly, 0 jewels, pin
pallet(!), non-shock, a number of rotating parts with full contact
with the plate so lots of dirt and shavings was produced by normal
use. Yet, it was one of the most succesful low end movements of all
time. ST96s were Pateks in comparison.
So we can't go and determine the mechanical merit of a movement just
by aesthetics.

Post by Anthony Fremont
As dAz pointed out, there seems to be a missing tooth on an intermediate
wheel. The OP apparently didn't find it laying around anywhere inside.
Maybe the wheel was assembled into the watch with a broken tooth and it
resulted in all the metal dust and wear? No matter how you slice that,
it seems to bring their quality control into question. Unless you find
that kind of thing frequently when working on Swiss watches? :-?

No that would be bad and i missed that bit about the tooth. <looks at
pics again>
The only place where i can see a tooth out(actually four) is on the
date change wheel, but that is done on purpose. The gap in the teeth
is used as a locator for the date change wheel. That allows that wheel
to be usually out of mesh with the train. It gets rotated by a quarter
4 times in 24 hours when the intermediate wheel comes around, releases
and turns the date change wheel.
Unless Daz saw something else ? Daz ??

[Jack Denver]

The Baumgartners were solidly crafted movements and ran surprisingly well
even though they were unjeweled pin levers- they were what they put in
Mickey Mouse watches & such before there was quartz. Not unlike the old
Timexes. I wouldn't compare the slapdash Chinese movements to these despite
that the Chinese autos have jewels.

http://www.christophlorenz.de/watch/movements/baumgartner_896.php?l=en

Post by Frank Adam
On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 20:25:04 -0500, "Anthony Fremont"
I brought up the BFG 866 before. It is butt ugly, 0 jewels, pin
pallet(!), non-shock, a number of rotating parts with full contact
with the plate so lots of dirt and shavings was produced by normal
use. Yet, it was one of the most succesful low end movements of all
time. ST96s were Pateks in comparison.
So we can't go and determine the mechanical merit of a movement just
by aesthetics.

[Frank Adam]

On Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:54:44 -0400, "Jack Denver"

Post by Jack Denver
The Baumgartners were solidly crafted movements and ran surprisingly well
even though they were unjeweled pin levers- they were what they put in
Mickey Mouse watches & such before there was quartz. Not unlike the old
Timexes. I wouldn't compare the slapdash Chinese movements to these despite
that the Chinese autos have jewels.
http://www.christophlorenz.de/watch/movements/baumgartner_896.php?l=en

Did you just say they ran "surpisingly" well ? Think about that.

[Jack Denver]

I say surprisingly because one thinks of jewels as being necessary for a
watch to run well. In reality they have more to do with long life than with
reducing friction. A jeweled watch can run for 100 years as long as you
keep maintaining it. A pin lever watch will at some point have excessive
wear, but when it is brand new and freshly lubed there probably isn't much
difference in how it runs vs. a jeweled watch. Doing stuff like keeping
dirt out of a watch during assembly doesn't cost extra money, it only
requires careful attention to detail.

Post by Frank Adam
On Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:54:44 -0400, "Jack Denver"

Post by Jack Denver
The Baumgartners were solidly crafted movements and ran surprisingly well
even though they were unjeweled pin levers- they were what they put in
Mickey Mouse watches & such before there was quartz. Not unlike the old
Timexes. I wouldn't compare the slapdash Chinese movements to these despite
that the Chinese autos have jewels.
http://www.christophlorenz.de/watch/movements/baumgartner_896.php?l=en

Did you just say they ran "surpisingly" well ? Think about that.
--
Regards, Frank

[Frank Adam]

On Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:12:14 -0400, "Jack Denver"

Post by Jack Denver
I say surprisingly because one thinks of jewels as being necessary for a
watch to run well. In reality they have more to do with long life than with
reducing friction. A jeweled watch can run for 100 years as long as you
keep maintaining it. A pin lever watch will at some point have excessive
wear, but when it is brand new and freshly lubed there probably isn't much
difference in how it runs vs. a jeweled watch. Doing stuff like keeping
dirt out of a watch during assembly doesn't cost extra money, it only
requires careful attention to detail.

Ok, so how did you then come to the conclusion that the Chinese
movement will not "surprisingly" do the same ?
I've done plenty of BFGs and Timexes. On paper, none of them will even
touch this watch as far as potential longevity is concerned.

[Anthony Fremont]

Post by Frank Adam
On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 20:25:04 -0500, "Anthony Fremont"

Post by Anthony Fremont
As dAz pointed out, there seems to be a missing tooth on an

intermediate

Post by Frank Adam

Post by Anthony Fremont
wheel. The OP apparently didn't find it laying around anywhere inside.
Maybe the wheel was assembled into the watch with a broken tooth and it
resulted in all the metal dust and wear? No matter how you slice that,
it seems to bring their quality control into question. Unless you find
that kind of thing frequently when working on Swiss watches? :-?

No that would be bad and i missed that bit about the tooth. <looks at
pics again>
The only place where i can see a tooth out(actually four) is on the
date change wheel, but that is done on purpose. The gap in the teeth
is used as a locator for the date change wheel. That allows that wheel
to be usually out of mesh with the train. It gets rotated by a quarter
4 times in 24 hours when the intermediate wheel comes around, releases
and turns the date change wheel.
Unless Daz saw something else ? Daz ??

The 23'rd and 24'th pictures seem to show a 10 tooth wheel (pinion?)
that has half of a tooth broken off. Looks like it might be the
intermediate hand setting wheel that engages the minute wheel. Not
exactly a high stress environment. ;-)

[Alex W.]

Post by Frank Adam
So we can't go and determine the mechanical merit of a movement just
by aesthetics.

If you ever get the chance, do take a look at a Ditisheim deck watch. The
majority of them look like unfinished shite, but they ran well enough to win
Kew and Neuchatel chronometer competitions.

[dAz]

Post by Frank Adam
No that would be bad and i missed that bit about the tooth. <looks at
pics again>
The only place where i can see a tooth out(actually four) is on the
date change wheel, but that is done on purpose. The gap in the teeth
is used as a locator for the date change wheel. That allows that wheel
to be usually out of mesh with the train. It gets rotated by a quarter
4 times in 24 hours when the intermediate wheel comes around, releases
and turns the date change wheel.
Unless Daz saw something else ? Daz ??

don't look at me, I didn't say nuthin :)

but now that you mentioned it, on that date the upper pinion looks like
it has one tooth short or a half tooth, then it could be the rough finish.

cleaned and serviced the chinese movement would not be too bad, be a
good practice movement for a newbie.

BTW if you think the BFGs were rough, what about those Ruhla?! the
german made pin pallets, the finish on the plates looked like some kind
of miniaturised steel checkerplate same as you find on alarm clocks, in
fact the movement looked like a shrunk alarm clock without the alarm, at
least the BFGs had proper conical pivots not cone pivots like these things.

[Frank Adam]

Post by dAz

Post by Frank Adam
No that would be bad and i missed that bit about the tooth. <looks at
pics again>
The only place where i can see a tooth out(actually four) is on the
date change wheel, but that is done on purpose. The gap in the teeth
is used as a locator for the date change wheel. That allows that wheel
to be usually out of mesh with the train. It gets rotated by a quarter
4 times in 24 hours when the intermediate wheel comes around, releases
and turns the date change wheel.
Unless Daz saw something else ? Daz ??

don't look at me, I didn't say nuthin :)

<mode pedant> Oh, what did you say then ? </p> ;-)

Post by dAz
but now that you mentioned it, on that date the upper pinion looks like
it has one tooth short or a half tooth, then it could be the rough finish.

Hm, yeah that does seem like it's angled off or something. The shadow
seems to confirm it too. That's a whoops alright.

Post by dAz
cleaned and serviced the chinese movement would not be too bad, be a
good practice movement for a newbie.
BTW if you think the BFGs were rough, what about those Ruhla?! the
german made pin pallets, the finish on the plates looked like some kind
of miniaturised steel checkerplate same as you find on alarm clocks, in
fact the movement looked like a shrunk alarm clock without the alarm, at
least the BFGs had proper conical pivots not cone pivots like these things.

Is it whinging time again already ? :-) What was in those Oris junks,
EBs wasn't it ? Round, horrible 7-8 ligne things they were and a pig
of a repair. Then we had the Timex "let's use flaps instead of screws"
watches. Gimme a BFG any day. :)

[dAz]

Post by Frank Adam
Is it whinging time again already ? :-) What was in those Oris junks,
EBs wasn't it ? Round, horrible 7-8 ligne things they were and a pig
of a repair. Then we had the Timex "let's use flaps instead of screws"
watches. Gimme a BFG any day. :)

actually I quite like Oris, simple to repair, parts easy to get at the
time, a very popular school watch, the one I had survived my school
years and still runs if I wind it :)

Oris made their own movements, the EBs were another company and yes,
were horrors.

if you want any bits for the BFGs I think I still have 50grams of
setlevers somewhere seeing they used to sell parts for those by weight
not number ;)


as for timex, nah, apart from a one time gluing a rotor disk back
together for that quartz they made I won't touch them, torch them yes,
touch them no :)

[Jack Forster]

Gotta agree with Jack D. on this one; the Alphas are what they are; very
inexpensive ways to have some fun with a mechanical watch but the amount of
dirt inside the one opened up by the guy whose TZ post started this whole
thread. . . well, it's just not good basic watchmaking to have a movement
that dirty and the general level of finish is terrible, there's no other
word for it, for a better example of what cost-conscious but honest
watchmaking looks like you'd have to look at an entry level Citizen or Seiko
mechanical, Poljot makes very decent entry level mechs, even basic
mechanical Swatch watches with a 2824 will show consistent clean tooth
profiles, no burrs on the contact surfaces, lubricant applied consistently
and cleanly and most especially none of the debris fouling the Alpha.
Watchmaking has been around for five hundred years and more and dirt is the
great enemy of a watch, you can't have that much crud inside it and expect
it to last. Of course if five years of more or less OK running is all
you're looking for you might get lucky and get exactly that and for fifty or
sixty bucks, who cares if it chews itself to bits, you can have a lot of fun
before it dies. But if you really want a good basic mechanical watch with
some good basic watchmaking quality, it's easy to find, and the Alpha, at
least as pictured, ain't it.

Post by Revision
"Frank Adam"

Post by Frank Adam
Bad ? In what way can you tell that the watch
is bad ? Is it worse than what Oris spewed out
many years ago, or the BFGs that were stuck into
quite a few cheap Swiss brands ?

I agree. Both of my alpha explorers run at a consistent +5 out of the
box. And I subscribe to a rule such that the reliability of a watch is
inversely related to the price. The alphas will be running long after
yer Co-Axial packs it in.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Jack Denver]

The other thing to keep in mind is that the Chinese ain't that far off - you
can see that the basics of a mechanical watch are there - it's just that the
devil is in the details. Bring in one good Swiss or Japanese plant manager
and get it thru to the workforce that dirt is the enemy of a watch and
they'll be there - "world class" is almost within their reach, they're just
not quite there yet.

Post by Jack Forster
Gotta agree with Jack D. on this one; the Alphas are what they are; very
inexpensive ways to have some fun with a mechanical watch but the amount
of dirt inside the one opened up by the guy whose TZ post started this
whole thread. . . well, it's just not good basic watchmaking to have a
movement that dirty and the general level of finish is terrible, there's
no other word for it, for a better example of what cost-conscious but
honest watchmaking looks like you'd have to look at an entry level Citizen
or Seiko mechanical, Poljot makes very decent entry level mechs, even
basic mechanical Swatch watches with a 2824 will show consistent clean
tooth profiles, no burrs on the contact surfaces, lubricant applied
consistently and cleanly and most especially none of the debris fouling
the Alpha. Watchmaking has been around for five hundred years and more and
dirt is the great enemy of a watch, you can't have that much crud inside
it and expect it to last. Of course if five years of more or less OK
running is all you're looking for you might get lucky and get exactly that
and for fifty or sixty bucks, who cares if it chews itself to bits, you
can have a lot of fun before it dies. But if you really want a good basic
mechanical watch with some good basic watchmaking quality, it's easy to
find, and the Alpha, at least as pictured, ain't it.

Post by Revision
"Frank Adam"

Post by Frank Adam
Bad ? In what way can you tell that the watch
is bad ? Is it worse than what Oris spewed out
many years ago, or the BFGs that were stuck into
quite a few cheap Swiss brands ?

I agree. Both of my alpha explorers run at a consistent +5 out of the
box. And I subscribe to a rule such that the reliability of a watch is
inversely related to the price. The alphas will be running long after
yer Co-Axial packs it in.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[j***@netzero.net]

That begs the question. Are the satisfied Alpha owners the ones with
clean movements and was this (it still should never happen) an anamoly?
The Seikos and Hamiltons are all well priced very well designed and
manufactured units..but nobody from Switzerland comes close to a $45
mechanical GMT watch.

Post by Jack Denver
The other thing to keep in mind is that the Chinese ain't that far off - you
can see that the basics of a mechanical watch are there - it's just that the
devil is in the details. Bring in one good Swiss or Japanese plant manager
and get it thru to the workforce that dirt is the enemy of a watch and
they'll be there - "world class" is almost within their reach, they're just
not quite there yet.

[Revision]

Post by j***@netzero.net
That begs the question. Are the satisfied Alpha owners
the ones with clean movements and was this ... an anamoly?

I agree with Frank and am not ready to write off alpha based on one
photo. But besides that, these watches are probably intended for the
Chinese domestic market, and so now we are talking about several day's
pay. The alpha cases and dial are just fine, they run accurate as hell,
and so a Chinese production line worker is going to be pleased to wear
it, and has reason to be. There are much worse watches than the alpha in
production in China now, at least for the time being. Quoting the
article:

"What conclusions can I draw from this? I think the most obvious one is
that although it's an inexpensive watch, the movement is nevertheless
pretty well constructed. The finish may not be all that stellar, but it
works! It has some attractive features that the praised-around-here Seiko
does not possess."

Post by j***@netzero.net
nobody from Switzerland comes close
to a $45 mechanical GMT watch.

If they do they will have a market in China.

[Jack Denver]

I don't think these are meant for the Chinese domestic market, at least not
as an "Alpha". On the domestic market, these same watches all have Rolex
dials. Chinese consumers are pretty sophisticated - they know they are
buying them as fakes and are buying them for the fake value of the
trademark, not because they are under any illusions that they are getting a
good watch.

Post by Revision

Post by j***@netzero.net
That begs the question. Are the satisfied Alpha owners
the ones with clean movements and was this ... an anamoly?

I agree with Frank and am not ready to write off alpha based on one
photo. But besides that, these watches are probably intended for the
Chinese domestic market, and so now we are talking about several day's
pay. The alpha cases and dial are just fine, they run accurate as hell,
and so a Chinese production line worker is going to be pleased to wear
it, and has reason to be. There are much worse watches than the alpha in
production in China now, at least for the time being. Quoting the
"What conclusions can I draw from this? I think the most obvious one is
that although it's an inexpensive watch, the movement is nevertheless
pretty well constructed. The finish may not be all that stellar, but it
works! It has some attractive features that the praised-around-here Seiko
does not possess."

Post by j***@netzero.net
nobody from Switzerland comes close
to a $45 mechanical GMT watch.

If they do they will have a market in China.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Jack Forster]

Eggs not necessary but simple facts, the movement was filthy, it's poorly
made with shabby fit and finish at best (I think one of the intermediate
setting wheels for the date actually had a broken tooth and there were burrs
all over the place) it's not a well made watch, that's all there is to it
and it's not helped by obviously no QC during assembly. The fellow who did
the disassembly did his best but he's obviously not a watchmaker (in
fairness to him he wasn't pretending to be either) but his comments can't be
taken seriously as a professional evaluation. Daz on the other hand is
inside more movements in a year than most of us are in a lifetime so I think
you should take his objective opinion seriously. The Alpha is not to be
recommended even as an entry level watch, period. It would be nice
obviously if it were, but if you want an entry level mechanical there are
already tons of decent choices, I just got my son a nice Hamilton Khaki
field watch, hand wound version, in 33mm for 45 bucks at a Swatch group
sample sale here in NYC but even from an online retailer it won't cost you
much more than a Seiko diver and you'll have a great good looking practical
watch that will last and last; Seiko 5's are cheap as dirt and don't have
any inside to boot ;-) for less than three hundred you can buy one of the
new Seiko 6R15 autos, the list goes on and on. It's nothing personal,
y'know? The Alpha is junk.

Post by j***@netzero.net
Is anybody throwing eggs at me (yet?). Please warn me so I can duck.
Interestingly, the Alpha's seem to have a loyal and happy following
(from what I've read on various forums) and they seem to keep time
pretty accurately even after a period of time. I suppose the dirt is in
place of lubrication. The fellow who dismantled it sure took alot of
time and effort. Now when he removes the dirt...COSC spechs might
follow. Let's hope the satisfied owners were lucky enough to have the
non dirt version. The assembler must wash his hands before returning to
the bench.
Eggs now.

[j***@netzero.net]

Thank you!

Post by Jack Forster
Eggs not necessary but simple facts, the movement was filthy, it's poorly
made with shabby fit and finish at best (I think one of the intermediate
setting wheels for the date actually had a broken tooth and there were burrs
all over the place) it's not a well made watch, that's all there is to it
and it's not helped by obviously no QC during assembly. The fellow who did
the disassembly did his best but he's obviously not a watchmaker (in
fairness to him he wasn't pretending to be either) but his comments can't be
taken seriously as a professional evaluation. Daz on the other hand is
inside more movements in a year than most of us are in a lifetime so I think
you should take his objective opinion seriously. The Alpha is not to be
recommended even as an entry level watch, period. It would be nice
obviously if it were, but if you want an entry level mechanical there are
already tons of decent choices, I just got my son a nice Hamilton Khaki
field watch, hand wound version, in 33mm for 45 bucks at a Swatch group
sample sale here in NYC but even from an online retailer it won't cost you
much more than a Seiko diver and you'll have a great good looking practical
watch that will last and last; Seiko 5's are cheap as dirt and don't have
any inside to boot ;-) for less than three hundred you can buy one of the
new Seiko 6R15 autos, the list goes on and on. It's nothing personal,
y'know? The Alpha is junk.

Post by j***@netzero.net
Is anybody throwing eggs at me (yet?). Please warn me so I can duck.
Interestingly, the Alpha's seem to have a loyal and happy following
(from what I've read on various forums) and they seem to keep time
pretty accurately even after a period of time. I suppose the dirt is in
place of lubrication. The fellow who dismantled it sure took alot of
time and effort. Now when he removes the dirt...COSC spechs might
follow. Let's hope the satisfied owners were lucky enough to have the
non dirt version. The assembler must wash his hands before returning to
the bench.
Eggs now.

[John S.]

You were wondering about Grovana's Reputation???
Did you read through PMWF archives?

[j***@netzero.net]

Nothing that I could find about quality...only about postings by
distributors that upset people.

Post by John S.
You were wondering about Grovana's Reputation???
Did you read through PMWF archives?

[Jack Denver]

I tried looking just now and there was a post to the effect that the admin
had deleted the Grovana thread after it became too heated.

Reading between the lines, I gathered that a couple of people who were
Grovana distributors were posting on PMWF without identifiying themselves as
such, extolling Grovana and stating that all other watch brands were junk
and eventually people called bullshit on them. But this does not negate the
merit (or lack thereof) of the brand.

Post by John S.
You were wondering about Grovana's Reputation???
Did you read through PMWF archives?

[j***@netzero.net]

Thanks Jack. That's all that I could find. Given the fact that they
produce RT watches, can I assume a good level of quality in general?

Post by Jack Denver
I tried looking just now and there was a post to the effect that the admin
had deleted the Grovana thread after it became too heated.
Reading between the lines, I gathered that a couple of people who were
Grovana distributors were posting on PMWF without identifiying themselves as
such, extolling Grovana and stating that all other watch brands were junk
and eventually people called bullshit on them. But this does not negate the
merit (or lack thereof) of the brand.

Post by John S.
You were wondering about Grovana's Reputation???
Did you read through PMWF archives?

[Olaf Peuss]

Post by j***@netzero.net
Thanks Jack. That's all that I could find. Given the fact that they
produce RT watches, can I assume a good level of quality in general?

I'm not Jack but dare say that concluding from the once good quality of
Revue-Thommen watches to the quality of contemporary Steinhart watches
look to me a little like concluding from the high level of Mercedes
build quality in the 1960s and 1970s that nowadays Smart cars must be
excellent. :-)

Best regards,
OP

[j***@netzero.net]

OP...Have you had the chance to examine a Grovana or a Steinhart?

[Olaf Peuss]

Post by j***@netzero.net
OP...Have you had the chance to examine a Grovana or a Steinhart?

No, otherwise I would have written about my experience. I just warned
you of the assumption that Steinhart must be a good brand just because
Steinhart watch manufacturer Grovana also happens to make the once
famous Revue-Thommen watches. As I wrote before: Revue-Thommen focused
back on their core business and just transferred the watch business to
Grovana with lock, stock and barrel.

The Swatch Group makes cheapo plastic watches (Swatch, Flik-Flak) but
also high-end watches such as Omega, Breguet and Blancpain. Now, does
the fact that Flik-Flak watches come from the same holding company as
Omega or Breguet mean that they're all of the same quality?
(OK, this might be an extreme example, but you're getting the point,
aren't you? In the end, you always get what you pay for.)

Best regards,
OP

[j***@netzero.net]

Thank you. Point well taken.
I wish that I had a resource to indicate how good they are or aren't.
At least the GMT uses the excellent ETA 2893 movement and a 300 m water
resistance rating. I haven't found any $450 watches that match those
two spechs.

[Olaf Peuss]

Post by j***@netzero.net
At least the GMT uses the excellent ETA 2893 movement and a 300 m water
resistance rating. I haven't found any $450 watches that match those
two spechs.

Please observe that there are different qualities of that movement
available. The ETA documents will provide you with all the details, and
you may want to ask Steinhart, which quality category they use in their
GMT watches.

Best regards,
OP

[j***@netzero.net]

Dear OP,
Once again thank you!
I thought that the ETA 2893 is a derivative of the ETA 2892.A2 which
is always an excellent movement. I thought that only the 2824 has
varying levels from basic to chronometer. Am I wrong?

Post by Olaf Peuss

Post by j***@netzero.net
At least the GMT uses the excellent ETA 2893 movement and a 300 m water
resistance rating. I haven't found any $450 watches that match those
two spechs.

Please observe that there are different qualities of that movement
available. The ETA documents will provide you with all the details, and
you may want to ask Steinhart, which quality category they use in their
GMT watches.
Best regards,
OP

[j***@netzero.net]

Dear OP,
Once again thank you!
I thought that the ETA 2893 is a derivative of the ETA 2892.A2 which
is always an excellent movement. I thought that only the 2824 has
varying levels from basic to chronometer. Am I wrong?

Post by Olaf Peuss

Post by j***@netzero.net
At least the GMT uses the excellent ETA 2893 movement and a 300 m water
resistance rating. I haven't found any $450 watches that match those
two spechs.

Please observe that there are different qualities of that movement
available. The ETA documents will provide you with all the details, and
you may want to ask Steinhart, which quality category they use in their
GMT watches.
Best regards,
OP

[Jack Denver]

I'm not sure that's correct in the same sense as the 2824 where you can very
clearly order different grades from economique to chronometer. The 2893 is
part of the "specialites'" line which all come thru with high grade
assortments. That being said, a manufacturer can order (or add in its own
shop) special finishes such as Geneva stripes, etc. which would raise the
cost of the movement even more, but there are no "cheap" 2893's the way ther
are cheap 2824s.

Post by Olaf Peuss

Post by j***@netzero.net
At least the GMT uses the excellent ETA 2893 movement and a 300 m water
resistance rating. I haven't found any $450 watches that match those
two spechs.

Please observe that there are different qualities of that movement
available. The ETA documents will provide you with all the details, and
you may want to ask Steinhart, which quality category they use in their
GMT watches.
Best regards,
OP

[j***@netzero.net]

That was the impression I was under as well.,,,and makes the choice of
a ETA 2893 much simpler than a 2824.

Post by Jack Denver
I'm not sure that's correct in the same sense as the 2824 where you can very
clearly order different grades from economique to chronometer. The 2893 is
part of the "specialites'" line which all come thru with high grade
assortments. That being said, a manufacturer can order (or add in its own
shop) special finishes such as Geneva stripes, etc. which would raise the
cost of the movement even more, but there are no "cheap" 2893's the way ther
are cheap 2824s.

Post by Olaf Peuss

Post by j***@netzero.net
At least the GMT uses the excellent ETA 2893 movement and a 300 m water
resistance rating. I haven't found any $450 watches that match those
two spechs.

Please observe that there are different qualities of that movement
available. The ETA documents will provide you with all the details, and
you may want to ask Steinhart, which quality category they use in their
GMT watches.
Best regards,
OP

[dAz]

Post by j***@netzero.net
http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&th=636568&mid=1923533&rid=0&rev=&reveal=
For the price....wow.

yeah wow, what a piece of shit, bad finish, looks like they cut corners
by not cleaning the movement before final assembly, that "dirt" on the
crown or winding wheel is wear, its metal partials grinding off the
winding or auto gear somewhere, this watch will have a short life, the
nitwit that wrote the article hasn't got a clue, he has a few digs at
Seiko's 7S26, well for one thing the Seiko is a proven workhorse, it
will outlast this POS by a long way, you do not need handwinding in an
auto, give it few shakes and wear it, I have seen ETA autos with worn
out winding gears that needed replacement wheels and bridges because the
owners persisted in handwinding them, in hindsight Seiko's decision to
not bother with handwinding is not as silly as you might think, apart
from keeping the cost down, there is less to go wrong, and this movement
has been around since the mid 60s, ok.

hacking nah! I don't worry about it, I just make sure the minute and
hour hands are showing the correct time.

[j***@netzero.net]

O.K. How about for $5 ?
Maybe 5 for $5 ?

[dAz]

Post by j***@netzero.net
O.K. How about for $5 ?
Maybe 5 for $5 ?

only if you pay me $5 for it ;)

otherwise, no thanks, I have enough crap in my junkbox now, in fact
there might be one of those movements floating around in the box now, I
think it's russian, but I suspect the Alpha's movement maybe chinese,
copied from the russian one?, who knows, they copy everything else.

[Revision]

Post by dAz
Alpha's movement maybe chinese,
copied from the russian one

I believe the "explorer" clone is a copy or adaptation of a Citizen
Miyota. They *do* copy stuff a lot.

Regarding the "dirt photo", I think the design of the watch may have
something to do with it. This is an eccentric gear. Perhaps it gets
jammed as part of its job, and we see the detritus that results.

[dAz]

Post by Revision

Post by dAz
Alpha's movement maybe chinese,
copied from the russian one

I believe the "explorer" clone is a copy or adaptation of a Citizen
Miyota. They *do* copy stuff a lot.
Regarding the "dirt photo", I think the design of the watch may have
something to do with it. This is an eccentric gear. Perhaps it gets
jammed as part of its job, and we see the detritus that results.

doesn't matter, it is metal dust, if it were cleaned off now and the
parts properly lubed it would extend the life of those parts, but as it
is the metal dust is like valve grinding paste.

[Frank Adam]

Post by dAz

Post by Revision

Post by dAz
Alpha's movement maybe chinese,
copied from the russian one

I believe the "explorer" clone is a copy or adaptation of a Citizen
Miyota. They *do* copy stuff a lot.
Regarding the "dirt photo", I think the design of the watch may have
something to do with it. This is an eccentric gear. Perhaps it gets
jammed as part of its job, and we see the detritus that results.

doesn't matter, it is metal dust, if it were cleaned off now and the
parts properly lubed it would extend the life of those parts, but as it
is the metal dust is like valve grinding paste.

That dust is off the plate though. Just as if you look at watches
under the crown wheel, you can see the bridge having been worn off.
Since this discussion is going i've looked at the Omega 625 i have
here waiting on a center wheel. The crown wheel has worn the plate off
on this too. So the Alpha is in good company. :)

[j***@netzero.net]

As a quick note. I ordered the GMT 'Pepsi Cola' Sub look alike from
Alpha in HK some 9 days ago.

At $45 with free s/h..I figured what is their to lose. Came today.

I cannot talk about accuracy, reliabilty etc.obviously....however I am
very very surprised at how nice it looks..how substantial the bracelet
is and how hefty the watch feels. Truly something for so little money.
]Will it last? Did I receive some free dirt? I do not know. I might not
open the case to find out...and just wait and see how it performs. But
at $45...

[John S.]

Post by j***@netzero.net
As a quick note. I ordered the GMT 'Pepsi Cola' Sub look alike from
Alpha in HK some 9 days ago.
At $45 with free s/h..I figured what is their to lose. Came today.
I cannot talk about accuracy, reliabilty etc.obviously....however I am
very very surprised at how nice it looks..how substantial the bracelet
is and how hefty the watch feels. Truly something for so little money.
]Will it last? Did I receive some free dirt? I do not know. I might not
open the case to find out...and just wait and see how it performs. But
at $45...

For $45.00...enjoy the watch.

[Revision]

Post by j***@netzero.net
As a quick note. I ordered the
GMT 'Pepsi Cola' Sub look alike
At $45 with free s/h..I figured what is their to lose.

Yeah I have one of those but I like the explorer clone a lot better.....
pd $22 for one plus shipping of course.

[j***@netzero.net]

Everyone has different taste. I don't like the Explorer look.

So far, +13 seconds in the first 24 hours. Not bad for pre break in.
Had to fiddle a bit to get the GMT hand set just right. Now it's well
coordinated with the other hands.

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by j***@netzero.net
http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&th=636568&mid=1923533&rid=0&rev=&reveal=
For the price....wow.

I've owned two. They are barely worth $20 let alone the $120 Alpha now charge.

They are nothing more than $15 Hong Kong fake "Rolex" watches with Alpha branding.

If you want the Rolex look buy a vastly superior Invicta for less money.