Waltham 15J pocket watch

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

anthony fremont

2010-01-06 21:03:37 UTC

I was poking around a pawn shop today and saw a Waltham pocket watch
with the stem at 12:00 (nothing odd there) and the sub-seconds at
3:00. I thought that was odd, anyone able to explain the sub-seconds
at 3:00? The dial looks like it was purposely made that way. Gold
plated open face case with a snap off back. I thought the snap-off
back was kinda weird too.

Bob

2010-01-06 22:19:35 UTC

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On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 13:03:37 -0800 (PST), anthony fremont

Post by anthony fremont
I was poking around a pawn shop today and saw a Waltham pocket watch
with the stem at 12:00 (nothing odd there) and the sub-seconds at
3:00. I thought that was odd, anyone able to explain the sub-seconds
at 3:00? The dial looks like it was purposely made that way. Gold
plated open face case with a snap off back. I thought the snap-off
back was kinda weird too.

It's a hunting case watch that's been recased and redialed. Open face
cases were cheaper than hunter cases.
Bob

Jack Denver

2010-01-07 17:43:32 UTC

Permalink

Maybe recased and redialed or maybe made that way to begin with - in the
pocket watch days movements were sold separately from cases and dials. You'd
go to your jeweler and pick out all three from his selection and in
accordance with your budget and he'd assemble them. It's conceivable that
some small jewelers might have stocked only hunting (savonette in Swiss
terminology) movements so that they would not have to carry twice as much
stock.

Post by Bob
On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 13:03:37 -0800 (PST), anthony fremont

It's a hunting case watch that's been recased and redialed. Open face
cases were cheaper than hunter cases.
Bob

Jack Denver

2010-01-07 18:08:52 UTC

Permalink

See the other posts and keep in mind that in the pocket watch days (before
calendar windows) the position of the dial (the orientation of 12 in
relation to the stem) was arbitrary and could be rotated (using a dial with
the seconds subdial in the "right" place). The only thing that was fixed was
the relationship between the stem and the seconds subdial. There were two
basic layouts - lepine and savonette in Swiss French terminology (or open
and hunting in American) . In lepine movements (named after the inventor)
the stem was 180 degrees opposite the seconds dial. So you could case this
typically as an open face with the stem at 12 and seconds at 6 or you could
case it as a hunter (or nowadays a wristwatch - we see this in the Unitas
based oversized wristwatches) with the stem at 3 and the seconds (and
hinge) at 9. In the savonette (little bar of soap?) the stem is 90
degrees from the seconds dial. Normally this would be (as Bob states) cased
as a hunter - stem at 3, seconds at 6 (hinge at 9). The grandfather of the
modern wristwatch. But if you rotate the dial so that the stem is at 12 then
you end up with seconds at 3 as you saw - admittedly a strange setup but it
required no more engineering than painting a savonette dial a little
differently.

anthony fremont

2010-01-07 18:35:46 UTC

Permalink

Just thought it extremely odd since the seconds dial was painted to
allow for this setup. I mean it makes sense that there would be a
market for dials made this way, it's just that I've never seen one
before that I can recall. I've seen hunter movements in the wrong
case before, but usually with a dial that looks like it was rotated 90
degrees.

Post by Jack Denver
See the other posts and keep in mind that in the pocket watch days (before
calendar windows) the position of the dial (the orientation of 12 in
relation to the stem) was arbitrary and could be rotated (using a dial with
the seconds subdial in the "right" place). The only thing that was fixed was
the relationship between the stem and the seconds subdial. There were two
basic layouts - lepine and savonette in Swiss French terminology (or open
and hunting in American) . In lepine movements (named after the inventor)
the stem was 180 degrees opposite the seconds dial. So you could case this
typically as an open face with the stem at 12 and seconds at 6 or you could
case it as a hunter (or nowadays a wristwatch - we see this in the Unitas
based oversized wristwatches) with the stem at 3 and the seconds (and
hinge) at 9. In the savonette (little bar of soap?) the stem is 90
degrees from the seconds dial. Normally this would be (as Bob states) cased
as a hunter - stem at 3, seconds at 6 (hinge at 9). The grandfather of the
modern wristwatch. But if you rotate the dial so that the stem is at 12 then
you end up with seconds at 3 as you saw - admittedly a strange setup but it
required no more engineering than painting a savonette dial a little
differently.

- Show quoted text -

LloydB

2010-01-16 02:56:38 UTC

Permalink

Post by anthony fremont
Just thought it extremely odd since the seconds dial was painted to
allow for this setup. I mean it makes sense that there would be a
market for dials made this way, it's just that I've never seen one
before that I can recall. I've seen hunter movements in the wrong
case before, but usually with a dial that looks like it was rotated 90
degrees.

[snipped]

These were conversion dials. Movements were shipped from the
factory with a dial installed, but I've never seen any evidence that
any movement was ever shipped with one of these.

I once was offered a box of 50 or more of these (all identical) that
had come from a jeweler's back room, and never used. They were
(yes) purposely made so that a 'hunting' movement could be mounted
in an open face case, with the stem located above the 12:00 position.

a***@gmail.com

2014-08-07 21:14:40 UTC

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If anyone sees this reply almost 5 years later... lol

I have a Waltham pocket watch with the serial number #475563; 15j 10s 14k are some of the marking on the inside of the watch. I'm trying to sell this watch. I found several similar watches in the $300 price range. Is my watch worth that much?