Discussion:
kettle: origin of this expression for a watch (timekeeper)
(too old to reply)
Phil C.
2005-08-29 14:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Can someone explain to us the origin of the cokney expression for a
"watch" (a time keeper). This question could not yet be correctly
answered in our NG.
Please send us your explanation to alt.horology.
Appreciating.
The SwissWatchGuy
(Posting from s.g.b) Not much help and I don't know if this has
already been mentioned but Partridge (Penguin Dictonary of Historical
Slang) doesn't attempt a specific origin. He gives it as "cant" (i.e
underworld slang) with "red kettle" for a gold watch and "white
kettle" for a silver one, mid C19th-C20th. I'd guess it was introduced
as a deliberately misleading term in case of eavesdroppers.
--
Phil C.
John Stevens (remove ??? to reply)
2005-08-29 15:18:32 UTC
Permalink
My understanding (as a born and bred Cockney) is that "kettle" comes from
"kettle and hob" = fob (fob watch)

John
Can someone explain to us the origin of the cokney expression for a
"watch" (a time keeper). This question could not yet be correctly
answered in our NG.
Please send us your explanation to alt.horology.
Appreciating.
The SwissWatchGuy
Jack Denver
2005-08-29 15:52:49 UTC
Permalink
This is true of almost all Cockney slang - the whole idea is to have a code
that is impenetrable to those outside the group. The rhyming feature is a
mnemonic to make the slang easier to remember.




"Phil C." <***@fsmail.net> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
I'd guess it was introduced
Post by Phil C.
as a deliberately misleading term in case of eavesdroppers.
--
Phil C.
Phil C.
2005-08-29 17:01:56 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:52:49 -0400, "Jack Denver"
Post by Phil C.
I'd guess it was introduced
Post by Phil C.
as a deliberately misleading term in case of eavesdroppers.
This is true of almost all Cockney slang - the whole idea is to have a code
that is impenetrable to those outside the group. The rhyming feature is a
mnemonic to make the slang easier to remember.
I don't think it's necessarily rhyming slang. That seems to have
started ca 1840 but only reached its zenith during WWI so "mid C19th"
seems quite early. Rhyming slang is based on obvious pairs and I
wonder how culturally integrated the modern obvious pairing of "kettle
and hob" would have been in the London underworld at that time. Tea
drinking was well established then but spread from the upper classes
down and was associated with the temperance movement. Most water
vessels (including kettle in its broader sense) would just have been
boiled over the fire in poorer areas.

I wonder if "kettle and hob" was invented later to fit an existing
slang expression into the rhyming-slang scheme(?)
--
Phil C.
Jack Denver
2005-08-29 17:36:49 UTC
Permalink
It's quite possible that the "hob/fob" rhyme came later and the original
meaning came from the concept that a kettle is something that you "watch". I
don't know which is the true origin.

Here are two more explanations:


"It was commonplace for everyone to wear a pocket watch and chain in the
waistcoat & it was also equally commonplace for the watch to be in the pawn
shop as an interim loan security - however no one was keen for people to
know that this situation was necessary, so the chain would be kept and worn
as normal. In the kitchens of the day the fire would be an open one and
there would be a bar or hook above it from which a length of chain would be
secured and from there the kettle would be suspended above the fire to boil.
So with this in mind, if the pocket watch chain, with no weight on it to
hold it in the pocket, fell out and dangled minus the missing watch, there
would always be some clever Charlie ready to pipe up "What's that for then,
your bleedin' kettle?"

Dave Walker provided the following: The origin of "kettle" comes from
illicit spirit making, distilled in what were large coppers known as
kettles, hence, kettle of scotch = watch. I have always understood this to
be the true origin, and it does rhyme, after all."



http://www.aldertons.com/english-.htm



Usually the true origin is lost in the mists of history, so we'll never know
which of these 4 answers is the right one.
Post by Phil C.
On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:52:49 -0400, "Jack Denver"
Post by Phil C.
I'd guess it was introduced
Post by Phil C.
as a deliberately misleading term in case of eavesdroppers.
This is true of almost all Cockney slang - the whole idea is to have a code
that is impenetrable to those outside the group. The rhyming feature is a
mnemonic to make the slang easier to remember.
I don't think it's necessarily rhyming slang. That seems to have
started ca 1840 but only reached its zenith during WWI so "mid C19th"
seems quite early. Rhyming slang is based on obvious pairs and I
wonder how culturally integrated the modern obvious pairing of "kettle
and hob" would have been in the London underworld at that time. Tea
drinking was well established then but spread from the upper classes
down and was associated with the temperance movement. Most water
vessels (including kettle in its broader sense) would just have been
boiled over the fire in poorer areas.
I wonder if "kettle and hob" was invented later to fit an existing
slang expression into the rhyming-slang scheme(?)
--
Phil C.
the swisswatchguy
2005-08-29 18:10:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Denver
Dave Walker provided the following: The origin of "kettle" comes from
illicit spirit making, distilled in what were large coppers known as
kettles, hence, kettle of scotch = watch. I have always understood this to
be the true origin, and it does rhyme, after all."
This is propably the real explanation. In any case, this is the one I
like most, especially if it was "pure malt". Watchmakers have always
been keen lovers of natural products having a good influence on the
"spirirt". Cheers.
Phil C.
2005-08-29 18:22:09 UTC
Permalink
On 29 Aug 2005 11:10:36 -0700, "the swisswatchguy"
Post by the swisswatchguy
Post by Jack Denver
Dave Walker provided the following: The origin of "kettle" comes from
illicit spirit making, distilled in what were large coppers known as
kettles, hence, kettle of scotch = watch. I have always understood this to
be the true origin, and it does rhyme, after all."
This is propably the real explanation. In any case, this is the one I
like most, especially if it was "pure malt". Watchmakers have always
been keen lovers of natural products having a good influence on the
"spirirt". Cheers.
Sadly, according to Partridge, the use of Scotch for a drink of Scotch
whisky only dates from 1885 - too late for "kettle". I think I like
the image of a thing that hangs on the end of a chain, like a kettle
over the fire. My wife's grandparents were still cooking on an open
fire in a tiny one-up-one-down cottage into the 1960s.
--
Phil C.
Charles Ellson
2005-08-29 19:32:30 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 19:22:09 +0100, Phil C.
Post by Phil C.
On 29 Aug 2005 11:10:36 -0700, "the swisswatchguy"
Post by the swisswatchguy
Post by Jack Denver
Dave Walker provided the following: The origin of "kettle" comes from
illicit spirit making, distilled in what were large coppers known as
kettles, hence, kettle of scotch = watch. I have always understood this to
be the true origin, and it does rhyme, after all."
This is propably the real explanation. In any case, this is the one I
like most, especially if it was "pure malt". Watchmakers have always
been keen lovers of natural products having a good influence on the
"spirirt". Cheers.
Sadly, according to Partridge, the use of Scotch for a drink of Scotch
whisky only dates from 1885 - too late for "kettle". I think I like
the image of a thing that hangs on the end of a chain, like a kettle
over the fire. My wife's grandparents were still cooking on an open
fire in a tiny one-up-one-down cottage into the 1960s.
This looks like an etymological "urban legend" involving erroneous
reverse-engineering of the rhyming slang "gold watch" (Scotch). The
OED provides a possible watch/kettle connection by giving one
definition of "kettle" as the "brass or metal box of a compass"; in
the case of a pocket compass there might be little difference from the
appearance of a fob watch when closed and (when the sun is out) it is
possible to obtain a rough north/south bearing using a watch (point
the hour hand at the sun and divide the angle between the hand and 12
o'clock). Rather than considering distillation equipment, a better
comparison is with an ordinary "kettle" (an open cooking pot not the
thing used to boil the water for the tea/coffee) in it's more squashed
form.
--
_______
+---------------------------------------------------+ |\\ //|
| Charles Ellson: ***@e11son.demon.co.uk | | \\ // |
+---------------------------------------------------+ | > < |
| // \\ |
Alba gu brath |//___\\|
the swisswatchguy
2005-08-31 15:26:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
Rather than considering distillation equipment, a better
comparison is with an ordinary "kettle" (an open cooking pot not the
thing used to boil the water for the tea/coffee) in it's more squashed
form.
Appreciating your kind explanation here on alt.horology.

Although your explanation is less romantic to a pure "malt" watchmaker,
it seems more probable.
Philip Maddocks
2005-08-31 17:56:09 UTC
Permalink
Just passing through but I thought that I would clarify. Kettle and Hob
according to Partridge, refers to 'Bob' a shilling

Philip Maddocks
the swisswatchguy
2005-08-31 18:10:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Maddocks
Just passing through but I thought that I would clarify. Kettle and Hob
according to Partridge, refers to 'Bob' a shilling
What was perhaps the weekly wage for a "bobby" in Robert Peel's days.

"For a long time politicians had been concerned about the problems of
law and order in London. In 1829 Robert Peel decided to reorganize the
way London was policed. As a result of this reform, the new
metropolitan police force became known as "Peelers" or "Bobbies".
Quoted from: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/PRpeel.htm
Phil C.
2005-09-01 09:55:36 UTC
Permalink
On 31 Aug 2005 11:10:52 -0700, "the swisswatchguy"
Post by the swisswatchguy
Post by Philip Maddocks
Just passing through but I thought that I would clarify. Kettle and Hob
according to Partridge, refers to 'Bob' a shilling
FWIW, my edition has that as "kettle on the hob", late C19th-20th
(which is a more likely date for rhyming slang). There are several
other kettle-related entries including a sexual one. (There always
seems to be at least one old sexual meaning for any slang word.)
Post by the swisswatchguy
What was perhaps the weekly wage for a "bobby" in Robert Peel's days.
"For a long time politicians had been concerned about the problems of
law and order in London. In 1829 Robert Peel decided to reorganize the
way London was policed. As a result of this reform, the new
metropolitan police force became known as "Peelers" or "Bobbies".
Quoted from: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/PRpeel.htm
"Bob" for shilling goes back to the C18th, of uncertain origin. Even
"bobby" for a policeman may have been borrowed from an older term for
a beadle. Peeler was originally an Irish term for a member of the
constabulary(1817) from Peel's time as Secretary for Ireland.
Etymology's a minefield(!)
--
Phil C.
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